Jan 27 2014 10:19am

Lost Girl Season 4, Episode 11 Discussion: This Is the End?

Bo and Tamsin in Lost Girl 4x11Note: This is an episode discussion post, so there will of course be MAJOR SPOILERS for last night's episode (on Showcase in Canada) in the comments. Remember, Canada is several weeks ahead; for recaps of Lost Girl Season 4 as it airs on SyFy in the U.S., be sure to check out Kiersten Hallie Krum's weekly Season 4 recaps (including for episodes 4x01 and 4x02).

OH NOES! SO many things happened on Lost Girl last night, not all of them good. Could the worst thing that happened last night really be true?

Here's the blurb for Lost Girl Season 4, Episode 11, “End of a Line”:

After Bo narrowly escapes an attack by a vengeful Fae, the team tracks down who sent it, only to make Bo doubt her feelings for someone she loves. Meanwhile, Kenzi's surprised by a visit.

What did you think?

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Kiersten Hallie Krum
1. Kiersten
How's everybody doing this morning? Still breathing?
2. nypinta
Found this, which I think is the thing Trick calls the horse in the picture when talking to Vex:

Naturally they're going to alter the creature to suit their needs like they do all supernatural creatures. Which I'm OK with since Trick did say to Bo that part of their job is to obscure the truth to humans so fairy tales humans tell each other are not to be trusted.

Back to previous thread discussion: Tamsin isn't the kind of person to pine. She expressed interest in Dyson, he said no. Doesn't mean she can't still be attracted, but she moved on to other forms of recreation in the mean time. Plus she was a bit busy with other stuff. I don't think she's been carrying a torch. I just think Acacia noted her reaction to Dyson when he showed up and was giving her a hard time about that. Because it seems that Acacia is one of those people that think a Valkyries life is one of duty only. Do the job. Get paid. Move on. Plus she also noted that Dyson made it clear to Bo that he came because Tamsin called & that he was there to back her up. Tamsin noted it too. Of course, Tamsin might also be trying to get Dyson to realize that he does't have to wait around for Bo, that he can move on. She might not intend it to be with her after that.

I'm really curious how Kenzi is going to be next week. With the loss of Hale will she stay angry at Bo. Will this be the season that Bo's friends aren't there for her the way she's used to them being? Hale is gone. Kenzi is a wreck. Dyson already told her he might be able to be there should Rainer turn out to need to be dealt with. Tamsin seems to be siding with Dyson. Lauren is gone. Vex might be the one with the seed and he's not really all that reliable anyhow. So Bo might be going it alone for a bit.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
3. Kiersten
See, I saw Tamsin backing Dyson up in his claim as coming because she called as backing him in giving him an excuse other than Bo for joining them when they both know she's still the reason he showed up, which is why he thanked her after Bo moved off. Tamsin was backing him taking that swipe at Bo, which hit its mark, because she sees/feels the pain Dyson and Kenzi are going through as a result of Bo's asinine infatuation with Rainer. And yeah, she's attracted to him; Tamsin attracted to a lot of different people and Fae. But she definitely hasn't been pining for him at all and I don't even think her kissing him in the boxing ring was her coming on to him so much as declaring herself as an equal alpha/partner unlike Hale who admittedly takes a beta role in their partnership (which is not at all a weaker role.) But Dyson is important to her - "our wolf" - and has been for some time so again, offering him sexual solace tracks. I liked that Dyson said straight off that his head was far from straight and Tamsin encouraged him to just not think for the moment and even egged him on to take what she was offering. I dont think there's any expectations there beyond that moment, but with this show, who knows? They'll manufacture a reason if it suits them.
4. ade
The writing for lost girl seems to have depreciated at an alarming rate .
the storylines are disjointed , not due to complexity but just badly
written there are many tv series with multiple complex threads on TV (eg
grimm) but lost girl writers are going out of their way to mess it up
please end this series in the next four episode so that its not
remembered as “heroes” two good seasons then downhill
5. nypinta
Right. Tamsin did cover for Dyson. I fogot that.

If Vex's father was one of Trick's generals was Trick Dark then or did Vex align Dark and sold out his Light family?
Kiersten Hallie Krum
6. Kiersten
Hi @Ade! Thanks for leaving a comment. Yeah, it does seem to be like the ill-fated Heroes in that way doesn't it? (Although Grimm has lost me for good after the mess that was S2.) When you look at something like Orphan Black (whose showrunners were, incidentally, executive producers of Lost Girl's S1) and how complex and tight they keep its plotting and characterization, it's a marked contrast to what Lost Girl has become. That LG enjoys such a devoted fan base still just proves how much the cast brings to the table to instill such ongoing fan commitment even now.

@NYPinTA - good question! I think at this point the lines between Light and Dark Fae are so blurred and barely given any kind of credence amongst their day t0 day lives, unlike how it was in S1 & S2 (remember the outrage over Bo hooking up with Dark Fae Ryan?) that no one inside the show or out are even bothering to worry about it anymore.
7. nypinta
My issue with the writing is that the keep making dialog misteps. Bo might very well be under some influence of Rainer's. But the stuff she says at the beginning of the episode was just plain wrong and it was pointless to be wrong. The same with reinstating the love triangle just to make it more "epic" that Bo chose Rainer instead. Her choice of a fae she met on a train that they all thought had done horrible things to her would still be shocking even if they hadn't had Bo still trying to "decide" between Dyson and Lauren. Because the overall story is pretty damn cool. Trick was a badass in the day and his seriously massive power erased an enemy from history and is now back and will cause all sorts of havoc. That's kind of awesome. The idea of a person being different without certain memories? Interesting to explore. Actual consequences to choices various characters have made, including Kenzi and Bo? Finally. Bo's desire to be free to chose her own life having an effect on the fae, just as Evony predicted, about damn time. It's the details that get screwed up. Details and continuity. But things that could be altered and the major plot still intact. This is more of the season we should have gotten last year with Bo coming off the high from the blood bond and fighting the Garuda.

Most of the outrage over Ryan came from Dyson because he never trusted any of the Dark. Obviously he's had a change of heart. Kenzi hated Ryan because he was trying to give Nate an early grave. But it seems that somewhere online someone from the show said Trick was a Dark fae king and yet no one on the actual show has said it. I supposed we're supposed to just guess? Not that anything anyone actually says means it'll be true a few episodes later anyhow.
Suzanne Metaxas
9. SuzyM
OK, this episode has broken my heart completely and made me wonder if I will continue to watch after the end of this season. I don't need to watch a show that causes my heart to hurt. Found another link for what a Pyruppis is posted it once but it didn't show so trying again.
10. JayCruz61
This forum is one of the best when discussing, "Lost Girl." I don't always comment but I read a lot of the comments each episode. Let me tell you there are a lot of awesome potential writers in here if not writers already. I just want to make a brief comment about Ksenia Solo's character Kenzi. Great performance by Solo by the way. It's hard getting to know Kenzi's background. We get bits and pieces but i'm hoping that in the future seasons, we'll get to hear more of her story. A great interjection, meeting her mom and now, it makes sense why the Kenster harbors the ill feelings she does towards her mom. With that said, I am really hoping that she can find love and it remains. Bo's had how many? I've lost count. So a good future storyline for Kenzi would be a steady that won't have to leave or die.. I'm going to miss Hale's character.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
11. Kiersten
I supposed we're supposed to just guess? Not that anything anyone actually says means it'll be true a few episodes later anyhow.

I think that's the core of it there. Nobody trusts Lost Girl to stay true to its plot and characters. It's not even a "Joss kills everyone" sort of thing where you know everyone is up for grabs at any time, because at least there it tends to track. It's that nothing is sacred and anything can be rewritten to fit the script of the moment (usually negatively for Dyson and positiviely for Doctor Lauren). The only thing everyone can agree on is that nothing will make sense or remain true to itself. When you've lost the trust of your audience to tell not only a good story but a comprehensible one, that's a huge problem and will have consequences.

@NYPinTA I agree that, when the relationships etc are stripped out and the season is looked at solely in terms of Trick's back story with the Fae War and what he did to Rainer and why and that now coming back to bite him and throw in the memory theme in relation to identity, it reframes the whole season in a positive light and is a compelling story. But that all gets lost under the quagmire of inconsistency and character assasination and outright wrongness of what happened when and how and why.

Despite everything, this is *still* such a dramatic improvement over season three, but it's hard to see that early promise of the front nine episodes de-evolve into another what the huh now? mess without really resolving anything. I find PTSD-conflicted Bo much more interesting than Drinking the Rainer Kool Aid and being a selfish bitch to the people who love her Bo by far. And we've now gone TWO SEASONS with Bo's father as the great big Fae evil boogyman and he STILL hasn't appeared on screen. Instead we've gotten the misdirect of Rainer as The Wanderer but not the one who kidnapped her but but but but...
Kiersten Hallie Krum
12. Kiersten
@JayCruz61 - thanks very much for saying that. We work hard here at H&H to keep this an interesting, safe forum for anyone who wants to discuss Lost Girl. (P.S. I'll letcha know when/if my books finally publish. ;))

Ksenia Solo kicked it out of the park last night for sure. When she's started screaming "I was gonna say yes! I WAS GONNA SAY YES!" I nearly lost it. Kenzi has endured so much without losing it that to see her break now over this tragedy was no less than devastating. I thought Anna Silk played Bo's complete shock over this so well as it's the first time for her too in their four years together that she's seen Kenzi break so completely. Poor Kenzi has taken a lot of shots in the last two seasons and always comes back with a quip and take no prisoners attitude, which is what makes this tragedy and her break down all the more painful.

I will miss Hale (HALE!) too. A lot.
Susan White
13. whiskeywhite
Still breathing, but still sad. The fact that Hale's death was predicted (me too) doesn't make it easier. Part of the pleasure of theatrical tragedy.

Continuing from last night's thread:

Excellent point, @nypinta: "Why couldn't have said, 'I failed where I didn't fail Rainer. He's my second chance...'." But the series has never blamed Bo for not going to the Norn to try to save Dyson, not for one nonosecond. To be fair, Bo was wallowing in despair (and self pity) at his rejection and thus was immobilized. Kenzi had no such barrier to action.

Also good and thorough retelling, @nypinta, of Dyson's story of not being an a-hole. But this is not the first time Bo and Kenzi have characterized him as such. I believe Kenzi may have originated the idea after the first brushoff. And he could certainly have handled the 'I've lost my love for you forever, you need to move on' situation more sensitively. But then he thought he was doing the right thing, as in ripping off the bandage quickly to reduce the hurt. But what with Kenzi saying to Bo, "You had me at a-hole"?

I agree, Kiersten, re: Tamsin: "I think it's really a case of her trying to give Dyson solace." But she doesn't know about the 'I don't love you any more' conversation Bo has had with Dyson. So why act now? Is it just that the now more fully adult Tamsin, with her memory returning, understands the general situation he's in?

Welcome, @diehard (you too, JayCruz61). Good arguments, @diehard, about Tamsin's lack on on-going sexual interest in Dyson. I agree as well that she has not been harbouring a secret crush on him. No "sad puppy dog eyes", as you say. Indeed, as @UberFaenatic says, "ZERO evidence." However, she does think of him very affectionately and cares about his wellbeing.

I agree with Kiersten as well (I'm in an agreeable mood this morning):
I liked that Dyson said straight off that his head was far from straight and Tamsin encouraged him to just not think for the moment and even egged him on to take what she was offering.
It was fun to look back at the extensive speculation in the last thread as to whether Dyson was into the kiss or not. He had his hand on her derriere as soon as she climbed into his lap, but that was probably KHR ensuring that RS was safely positioned. Then the hands went onto the bar until she convinced him to let himself go.

But I'm totally up for them having some comforting time together. I, too, @TheGardner thought she was going to be Dyson's Ryan, not that I liked the idea at the time.
Susan White
14. whiskeywhite
@diehard, you comment: "I'm not sure why Acacia mentioned the find a wolf and have puppies bit though, like it's fairly obvious she wants him when really it's not." I agree (there I go again, agreeing. I need a new verb. How about 'concur'). That seemed to come out of the blue. What does Acacia know about Tamsin's relationshp with Dyson? I suspect the writers were setting up the bar kiss to come.

(Even before Acacia's snark, I had been wondering what kind of children Bo and Dyson might have. Would they be chi-sucking wolves? More like werewolves?)

I am also in accord (concur even) with Kiersten that Dyson does not come to zombieland to back up Tamsin:
See, I saw Tamsin backing Dyson up in his claim as coming because she called as backing him in giving him an excuse other than Bo for joining them when they both know she's still the reason he showed up, which is why he thanked her after Bo moved off.
Yuperino. They made a big emotional point of it.
15. nypinta
Unless he's a shifter and the Rainer Bo see's and that was seen by Trick in the fae war looks like the hottie we see, but he has the ability to turn into the thing Tamsin was hired by. He might have forgotten that he had that power when Trick banished him to the train. Which, ew, BTW.

I would love more Kenzi backstory. Part of me even hopes that distraught Kenzi goes to bunk with Lauren. Because I really want to see her new place.

@whiskeywhite I recall both Bo and Kenzi calling Dyson names right after the Norn incident. I recall being annoyed about it back then too. But Kenzi had the unique experience of understand fully what it was Dyson lost during the body swap. And Bo grieving the loss of that relationship by getting angry at him then doesn't really excuse her using it as a reason that Rainer makes sense for her now, considering that she knows what he went through and what Kenzi went through to get it back. AND that he lost Ciara to boot. I do agree that he could have handled it better, but at the time he didn't have his love for her so her well being wasn't actually a priority anymore. And without that love he might have been just as angry with her because she stuck her nose into fae business and that's what got them all into that mess in the first place. (Because as I've argued before, Aife was not Bo's fight. She was Trick's and Dyson's. Bo being her daughter was beside the issue. But Bo insisted on getting in the middle of it and it cost them all dearly. Dyson his love. Trick created the Garuda. Aife got taken by Taft.) It's just that I've read other places people complaining about how angsty and brooding Dyson was when if you look at the math he's only that way for about three episodes, tops. When he first comes back and after her loses Ciara. And his actions didn't happen in a vacuum. They all know that. Well, not Tamsin apparently.
16. JayCruz61
Thanks for welcoming me Kiersten, whiskeywhite and anyone else that I missed. Great assessments concerning Dyson, Bo and Tamsin. I tend to think Kensi was spot on characterizing Bo, well i'll put it nicer than she did, a bit self-centered. It's one of the reasons why she is all over the map concerning her love interest. She seems to go with what titillates her at the time.
Susan White
17. whiskeywhite
@nypinta, I'm 100% with you on the unfairness of the a-hole business. Very well argued. I just didn't understand your last point about Tamsin.

@UberFaenatic, you asked previously what kind of Fae Acacia is. She is specifically referred to as a Valkyrie in this episode.

Again with the concurring: Kiersten says, " for once Kenzi finally let both barrels fly at Bo about how selfish and hypocritical she is about 'helping' people. 'Bout damn time."

Ksenia was astonishingly good there, as in the death scene. Ksenia has won acting awards. She's won three Gemini awards, which are like Canadian Emmies, one of them for LG in 2011 (the earlier ones for youth programming). In 2013 she was nominated for a Canadian Screen Award, which replaced the Geminis and is like the Emmies and the Oscars rolled together. She was nominated for the LG episodes "The Girl Who Fae'd With Fire" and"Truth and Consequences." She does deserve another for this episode.
Susan White
18. whiskeywhite
Thanks Kierten: "Dyson's 'mate for life' is a metaphysical issue, not physical or psychological." Right on. Plus, that's the word I was looking for re: his 'death' in "Ceremony".

Yes, @JayCruz61, meeting Kenzi's mother was very important to understanding her backstory. We've actually had a fair amount of backstory in this season. More than previous seasons. I was disappointed, though, that Dyson and Trick's history doesn't go back further than the early 1900s. It feels so medieval.

Thanks, @nypinta and @SuzyM for the links re: Pryippus (they actually come from the same source). Interestingly, this person, Aleister Lam, classifies them as a type of gryphon (look out Dyson). S/he says, " In Greek mythology they are said to reside in the underworld" (oh, oh, underworld) "and are responsible for driving the chariot of Hades... The leathery bat-like wings of the Pyrippus symbolises the perversion of the intellect towards the evil nature." Trick describes it as real evil in the world to Vex.

I don't think that Vex has the 6th seed, BTW. I think that's misdirection. Nor do I think it's Acacia (why?). Massimo, very possibly.

OK, I have to stop now and do some actual work.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
19. Kiersten
Interestingly, in both S3 and now in S4, it's the human who has slid in in the last few episodes as an unexpected enemy with brutal consequences
20. nypinta
For some idiotic reason I just wondered what would happen if Bo asked Trick to write Kenzi's feelings out of her memory. I mean, the entire season has been themed around memory. I can't imagine her actually doing it. But it just popped into my head and now I share with you all. You're welcome.
21. TheUberFan
@whiskeywhite...yep! I noticed that too. I had several of my little questions like that answered. Acacia is indeed valkyrie.

As for the Dyson/Tamsin scene...I'm thinking of it now as a "If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with."

Dyson and Tamsin both have feelings for Bo but Bo is on the Rainer train. That character beat where Tamsin is standing so close to the succubus that they're practically touching, our valkyrie sees that Bo is even more unattainable than ever...past the triangle and now with I think she goes to the Dal and seeks and gives comfort.

Remember the beat when Tamsin, even as a young fae, recognized, "That's what love feels like." Her first moments back as an adult fae has her rushing to Bo and kissing her...but that episode also re-established that she doesn't feel she is or deserves to "have a connection" with Bo. I think this added twist with her seeking and giving solace to Dyson also builds up more angst because she's already said that if Rainer turns out to be a baddie like they believe him to be, she'd take care of him. So what happens if she kills him and Bo is still moony for him? Add the Dyson angst and you have a couple of very angsty fae women.

The timeline has been identified thanks to Tamsin, at least if "the rebellion" they speak of is post Blood Laws. So you guys had that one totally right and puts her trading Rainer for a life reboot at slightly less than 1000 years ago. I don't know why they did what they did with Trick to make him look younger with the hair, but they're doing a lot I don't understand. :P

I need to rewatch the episode again to pick up on the fae lore courtesy Trick, Vex, Tamsin and Acacia were spouting and I need to clarify whether or not Acacia said bad things would happen to Tamsin for what she did to Rainer so long ago.

We all called it with Massimo and the Yay us. But I didn't get the sense he was something other than impervious. He was still a jerk but I didn't see him as supernaturally evil. So may be he doesn't have the seed.

Also...who else noted that Hale was killed by Geraldine??? I realized that late last night and just about cried myself to sleep. Oh the guilt Kenzi has right now, that will definitely spill out as anger onto Bo.

Remember that character beat when Bo caressed Lauren and Dyson's cheeks and told them she loved them both and the camera focused on Kenzi who was feeling the implied rejection? I think that was intentional to build on the rift between them.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
22. Kiersten
I think this version of Bo would absolutely ask Trick to write Kenzi's feelings out of her memory i.e. write Hale out of her memory, or at least she'd seriously think about it. There's too much honesty in Kenzi's grief, too much accountability for Bo's actions and how they were ultimately the catalyst for the choices Kenzi was forced to make that one way or the other lead to this tragedy and Bo hates to not be self-righteously above all that. It would be a neat twist on her character, the woman who claims she hates to be lied to "for her own good" manipulating her best friend and lying to her "for her own good".
23. TheUberFan
Unless he's a shifter and the Rainer Bo see's and that was seen by Trick in the fae war looks like the hottie we see, but he has the ability to turn into the thing Tamsin was hired by. He might have forgotten that he had that power when Trick banished him to the train. Which, ew, BTW.
There are still too many things about the Wanderer/Rainer that don't add up. The crows referred to him as "decaying." Their words. So if the Wanderer and Rainer are one in the is that possible? Because, HELLO he's a hottie.

Tamsin would have no reason to remember what Rainer looked like from the battlefield because he was wearing a helmet when she came to take his soul...but Trick did recognize him at the Dal. So either he is young and hot or he's old and decaying and has the ability to make himself look young and hot...or there are two separate players here.

But Trick says Rainer isn't evil, just "defiant." But what if Trick is wrong? At the end of the day, I'm convinced more than ever that Rainer is manipulating Bo for his own purposes.

The "memories" Bo had clashed with what we saw in her untouched memories Ianka gave her. And we also know that someone enacted a curse to make Bo disappear from the minds and hearts of those around her.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
24. Kiersten
I dont think Vex or Massimo have the seed; that was a woman's hand reaching for it in that scene. I paused the screen and examined it to be sure. I don't know why Trick assumes it was Vex - there's virtually nothing that would lead to that conclusion except that Vex was so badly wounded by the Una Mens and we know his hand was bloody after their torture, but there's no way for Trick to have seen that bandaged, shaking hand reaching for the seed as that was solely for the audience.

That said, it doesn't mean the show won't change it up but I'm still sticking with Aoife as my main bet until proven otherwise.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
25. Kiersten
I thought of the helmet issue, but I dont buy that throughout that entire battle, through all her time as a Valkyrie and Rainer's as a warrior, that it was the one and only time Tamsin saw Rainer and that she didn't see his face. If nothing else, helmets have visors. She knew who he was and I think she knows what he looked like too. Still doesn't explain how Trick recognized him in The Dal and she didn't, but, again, Lost Girl's constant "psyche!" plotting and characterization have created an environment where abosolutely nothing is believeable for long.
26. TheUberFan
@Kiersten... I agree with you that Aife looks like she's the most likely. (Aife...Aiofe...Aoife??) :) I had thought maybe Massimo, but if he has it, he didn't use it. I couldn't tell gender by the hand btw. :S It just looked injured to me.

I would have figured Tamsin would have seen him on the field of battle...but who knows? He might have just been a random warrior to her. She didn't recognize him in the book though and Trick did recognize him. So that has to mean something...but what, I do not know.

It's tough to make predictions and theorize when facts keep changing on the ground.
27. nypinta
The train was decaying. I mean... the train *could* be a manifestation of a physical creature. It did seem to be alive when Dyson and Clio were on it. It could just be an updated version of the dragon/horse thing Trick was looking at after her Dawning and muttering "no, not him" when looking at it. And what if the Dark Fae king that had Aife did eventually kill her and she ended up on the train and the train brought her back just to have his child?

I still think the problem is that everyone just assumed The Wanderer was Bo's father. Aife never said it was him. Tamsin assumed. She was hired to find Bo, I don't think she was told why. And as I said in the other thread, Tamsin's memories are still fuzzy. She might recognize Rainer eventually as the one whose soul she didn't deliver, but maybe not yet. But she knows enough to not recognize him as her boss. And her boss might have told her he was The Wanderer, but obviously that could have been a lie. Clio had assumed Eddy's identity while he slept. If I was Death or Evil Incarnate and wanted to do things as mysteriously as possible I'd use the name of a fae no one remembered too.
Suzanne Metaxas
28. SuzyM
OK, I'm calming down enough to contribute a little without blowing a gasket. Bo is a BITCH! The writers have made her so unlikable there may be no going back. She mocks the man who tried to give up his very being for her and had his love ripped out of his heart instead to save her sorry ass. Never once has she acknowledged how much he gave up for her and then suffered for it to boot. She never once paid anything but lip service to getting back his love for him. Yet every time she needs something she knows where to go! Use and abuse should be her damn motto! She uses and abuses Lauren, kills her lover (even if she was asked to) and then has the audacity to blame Lauren for their problems. She never really listens to Kenzi and always wrapped up with all her own needs and wants, let just face it that Bo they have created just sucks! Yes I long for the Bo & Dyson of S1 the hot mess we have right now just makes me very angry. I've two more episodes to watch before I make my decision about Lost Girl.
29. nypinta
@SuzyM But you'd still watch if Bo's dad was a train, right? Becaue it's funny... right?

Maybe we should start a pool about who has the seed. Vex, Massimo, and Aife are the three logical choices in my mind. Although Vex less so. But he might know who has it.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
30. Kiersten
If the decaying train is the metaphor or avatar for Bo's dad, that is like the *biggest* meh revelation ever. At that point, they should just have Trick point at it all "The Train! The Train!" and give themselves over to the absurdity once and for all.
Suzanne Metaxas
31. SuzyM
I think TPTB really didn't expect the backlash they've gotten. I've notice a lot of people are not tweeting for a S5 when asked to. I know I haven't been. I don't want as S5 if it is more of this shite.
Dine Stueg
32. Nocturne
I agree with you completely, Suzym.

This episode was depressing. You really shouldn't watch this when you have an exam the next day and you're trying to concentrate!

I'm sad all the speculations were right. Hale got killed and Kenzi asked Bo to chi suck her to save him. I didn't know in advance I was so right by comparing Hale/Kenzi to Tara/Willow in Buffy. They were together for a short while and happy. The death scenes were so similar. Hale/Tara smiles, everything seems alright and then bam... right through the heart, they're dead. Willow went dark and (well, apparently almost everything is copied from Whedon) I expect Kenzi to do the same.

I think it's a waste how they underused Hale in this season, especially since they knew they were going to kill him off. His only story was with Kenzi and although I truly loved that, it's bad they didn't give him more scenes with Dyson (goodbye bromance) or an actual backstory (only the lame scene with Ianka that didn't add anything) or showed some of the consequences for a human being in a relationship with a Fae. It's no consolation that KC wasn't the one who decided to leave, but the writers decided to do so. It was all for shock value.

From a writers point I understand. You want to surprise your audience and bring out emotions. Mission was accomplished. They were trending on twitter, people are sad and mad. Whedonised all the way (although on a side note, his character deaths and no one being happy in a relationship didn't really do his shows any good in the long run... cancellations, cancellations)

But for me personally as a fan, they actually ruined my reasons for watching the show. I watched for Bo/Kenzi, but Bo is so selfish in this season that I don't see their friendship ever returning back anymore into what it has been, even in this episode:
-Bo's first reaction to Kenzi maybe moving in with Hale: 'you're going to leave me'
-Bo blaming Dyson for giving away his love. Hellooo, he didn't even know he was doing that. Geez, the guy saved your life.
-Bo not even trying to give Hale some chi suck. I don't mean she should have let Kenzi die to ressurect Hale, but she could have tried giving the bit she already sucked from Kenzi. In fact, she didn't do anything. She didn't go outside and try to find people to suck from. She just immediately gave up.
It's not the Bo I want to be besties with Kenzi anymore.

And my other reason for watching was Kenzi/Hale, but that's gone now as well.

So, I'll watch the end of this season to see the revenge on Massimo and Dysons and Kenzis reaction at the funeral, but there are no reasons anymore for me to come back for the next season. I have zero interest in seeing Kenzi move on or the love triangle. I love you, Tamsin, but they're only using you for fanservice.

I don't want to end this post on a sad note and be all dramatic: I'm glad Hale died as a hero and the writers don't have the chance to ruin their relationship by including a love triangle. It was a real tragic love by including the Twig of Zamora being the reason. I thought the episode was well written and Kenzi finally got some backstory. It was realistic they didn't have a sudden reconcillation and her mother turned out to be the same horrible person as she has been in the past.

I really want to applaude KC for being such a gentleman about the whole thing and Ksenia Solo for her amazing performance. That girl can act! I would love to see her in other shows when she's done with LG.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
33. Kiersten
Losing Hale is one thing. A big bad thing, but there was set up and I actually agree that there has to be cost somewhere to all that's been going on. I'd rather it have been Doctor Lauren paying that price, but always knew that was a pie in the sky wish.

It's what Bo has become that is really out of control best evidenced by that utter bullshit she spouted to Tamsin and Kenzi in the cold open about Dyson and DL. Look, when it causes me to defend DL, you know it has to be really, really wrong. Add to that the suggested plan to undo Dyson's mated love and Bo essentially telling him she's not in love with him anymore (which is just more bullshit as 2 episodes ago she was saying the exact opposite) and her assuming he's going to show up when she calls anyway and how she's been treating Kenzi and the fact that she essentially is buying her own Chosen One hero press at this point and just no no no. The sense that there is nothing in this show that anyone can trust, not characterization, not plot, not even the history that has played out on screen before our eyes that can't or won't be undone when it's no longer convenient seems to be the one solid truth about Lost Girl these days. I'll allow for the slim chance that the revelation to Bo of Rainer's deceptions re-awakens the true Bo, but at this point, I think too much damage has been done to her character and only so many times you can drag things out and manipulate and play your audience before it has a lasting consequence.
34. TheUberFan
@Kiersten...hat tip on the Herve Villechaize/Tattoo riff (my interpretation). ;)
36. TheUberFan

You wrote...The Train! The Train! and in my mind I hear Tattoo from Fantasy Island saying... De Plane! De Plane!

And...I've just dated myself it seems. lol
Kiersten Hallie Krum
37. Kiersten
I get the sense that fans on all sides of the divide are upset and pissed and not only over losing Hale. One of the few consistent character paths has been Kenzi's journey through S3 & S4 along the lines of the distance growing between her and Bo as Bo first neglected her for DL and then got smokenapped, inadvertently leaving Kenzi to fend for herself in the Fae world without Bo's protection. I was irk in E8 when they went on about Bo's abandonment issues when it's Kenzi who was abandoned repeatedly and has serious issues. Her trying to solve them by dealing with Massimo has been on a slow burn all season and it's one of the only organic tracks that played out last night, horrible as it was to watch happen.

Overall, I get the sense that people are, for one reason or another, pissed at Bo and how she has become so selfish etc. If that was the intention due to first her Wanderer PTSD and then to being enamoured with Rainer out of nowhere here at the end of the seaons, then it came off without a hitch.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
38. Kiersten
@UberFaenatic - Oh! No, you're totally right, that's exactly what I meant. I just didnt know the actor's real name and any time I see "tattoo" in relation to LG, I think Dyson and Hot Tattoo Alert! Also, I've had about 3 hrs of sleep and am starting to crash
39. TheUberFan
There are still character beats that have not been explained. Why did Bo smile when Massimo jumped in the lava? Why did she set off the malicious fae detector? Why did she threaten Ianka rather than try to woo her?

And now she's being entirely unreasonable with her feelings about Rainer. I think there are a lot of red flags and Bo is unaware of them...and the people around her are dealing with their own issues and don't see it or are interpreting it to mean something else but are responding to the manifestation of what's "wrong" with Bo, and that's her selfishness and self centeredness which is a major deviation from the fae who sacrifices her interest for those she loves...and even for random strangers.
40. TheUberFan
Haha! Woot. I got the random 1980s pop culture refererence.

I think that deserves a cookie. ;)
41. nypinta
I think Bo tripped the malicious fae alarm because she's declared Dark. I believe Kenzi said it was something Trick taught her and since he's Light, it's natural that he'd consider any fae that is Dark as "malicious".

I do think Bo's reaction to Massimo was just one of efficiency. And she really did not like him. She initially jumped forward as if to stop him, but once it became clear he was in the lava and any normal person couldn't survive she was like, "meh" and not going to mourn his loss. He forced Kenzi to steal to pay for something that was useless, he helped whoever kidnapped her to do so, and the just tried to kill Tamsin. Hell. I'd smile too.

As for Ianka, I'm chalking that up to simple desperation. At that point Bo is still completely freaked about finding out she's "Dark" and still doesn't know what happened to her and here there is a fae that can sing her all the answers. Also, I think they used those moments to be red herrings that something was up with Bo. Either posession or something that happened to her on the train. And I'm not convinced that has played out completely. I do still wonder if one's basic nature isn't altered when one choses a side and that some of Bo's actions are because of that.
42. nypinta
Also, I do think the fact that in one episode Bo is quizzing a leviathan about which love to choose and two episodes later she's telling one of the two she's not in love with him anymore is a giant red flag. But it's subtle enough that her friends are fooled by it. If Rainer has done something to Bo he's not going to have a slip up like having Bo eat a food she's supposed to be allergic too. We're not going to get that one moment that says, "A ha! She's not a ghost. It's Mr. Wilderberry, the hotel owner!" And Rainer will shake his fist and declare that he would've have gotten away with it if it weren't for those damn meddling fae. Or Rainer has also been manipulated and after the season plays out Bo and Rainer won't have the same feelings for each other and he'll just leave. I don't know! I can't tell what they might do!

I still think that Hale's family is going to react extremely badly. I'm not looking forward to that confrontation. Will it be Val? Hale's father? Poor Kenzi. They are not going to give a crap how she feels. I don't think we're going to see Dyson's reaction to the news. It's going to jump past that. And maybe Kenzi tells Bo she doesn't want her at the funeral so Bo goes later, which is what we saw in that video and why she is alone.
43. bookittyboo
Lots of confusion happening about Tamsin and Trick recognizing/not recognizing Rainer. Tamsin said that the guy she saw in the book was not her "boss" which means Rainer is posing as the wanderer and has everyone else believing that to be true except Trick sees him as his true self. I dont understand why trick is not letting everyone else know he is not the wanderer.

Bo's feelings bouncing around is, i know for a fact, driving everyone nuts at this point. Bo in a previous episode said she loved lauren and dyson both then in the latest episode (11) she tells dyson she doesnt lol unless she ment she loves them both as a friend now but then that leaves kensi out completely lol bc she didnt even look or say that to her. Confusing things, i think, are happening all bc they want to please this love triangle crowd and in a way its kinda ruining it and they just need to pick 1 or neither at this point to save the show lol
43. TheUberFan
I do think there's something tangibly wrong with Bo. I don't think she set off the detector just because she was dark. It was a malicious fae detector...I think that was the shows way to hint she's off. Behaviorally, she's darker, more selfish. Maybe I'm just reading into things...but I still feel something is wrong.

Add in the unreasonableness of her out of the blue connection with her destiny...and I think that spells trouble.

Regarding Bo's ability to heal/revive.. I think the reason she couldn't heal Cayden in Season 2 or Hale here is that she simply didn't have enough chi to work with.

As an aside..take a look at this...

I wonder who this is and what the context is? I cannot determine if it's someone we know or should know through the little we see via the eye slot in the helmet or the physicality or clothing.
Susan White
44. whiskeywhite
@UberFaenatic, I got "The Train! The Train!" too and laughed out loud. But that doesn't help you if you're concerned about dating yourself. :-) I was there.

Yes! @nypinta: "the fact that in one episode Bo is quizzing a leviathan about which love to choose and two episodes later she's telling one of the two she's not in love with him anymore is a giant red flag." I think that Bo being so hurtful to Dyson is supposed to be screaming "Bo is not in her right mind" to us.

Welcome @bookittyboo.

Warning -- only slightly connected ramble in-coming, but all of the scenes on the train bring back these memories. I spent a fair amount of time on long-distance trains when I was younger, before planes became cheaper. Long distance train rides have a funny effect -- one is shut up for 2-3 days (in sleeping cars if you have the money) with strangers who you will never see again in your life. This results in some sexual shenanigans. I, and a lot of other young (I was 17) unattached girls got swept up in huge party one night put on by the porters and stewards, who on that (summer) train were college students. My mother made friends with a conductor who would come into her sleeping car room and sit with her (a big no-no. She invited him home for dinner with my father. He came). My partner worked on the trains as a porter when that job was almost exclusively reserved for black men. He remembers being cornered by a white woman passenger who was apparently up for some action with 'the help', in the bathroom of all places. His co-workers had many similar stories.

Where's the helmetted warrior picture from, @UberFaenatic? Sure looks like a woman to me.
45. TheUberFan
The helmeted warrior comes from Showcase...a teaser pic for the Next Episode:
Kiersten Hallie Krum
46. Kiersten
I think that Bo being so hurtful to Dyson is supposed to be screaming "Bo is not in her right mind" to us.

Normally, I'd agree, but the show has now established such a reputation of changing things just because they need it to be different, there's no way to tell anymore what's a red herring, what's a clue, and what's just another retcon. Which, if that's the point, then well done show.
47. nypinta
I think based on the helmet it's going to be part of a flashback probably part of the fae war that Trick and Rainer were involved in. Rainer might be telling things from his side to Bo (and the others....?) Because actually none of them really know who Rainer is or what he actually did since Trick wiped him from everyone's memory. Now that he's being rewritten in he might be hailed as a hero while Trick is depicted as the villian.

If they had rewritten the open with Bo, Kenzi, and Tamsin and then later between Bo and Dyson, I wouldn't have a problem with the rest of the episode. Other than the gross factor. I hate zombies. I mean... loath. (BTW, someone mentioned KHR's movie The Returned and it is only sort of about zombies. When they say it's not really a zombie movie they aren't kidding. So if like me you can't stand typical zombie movies, this one isn't and I recommend it.)

I'm curious what Vex's reaction to Hale's death is going to be? They fought, but once they got their memories back he was pretty upset he tried to kill both of them. I think he liked Hale. And we know he's got a soft spot for Kenzi.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
48. Kiersten
Also, what happened to the search for the Hellskor? Or dont we care about the hell shoes anymore?
Kiersten Hallie Krum
49. Kiersten
If they had rewritten the open with Bo, Kenzi, and Tamsin and then later between Bo and Dyson, I wouldn't have a problem with the rest of the episode.

Yeah, pretty much. Hale's death is endless tragedy but not whollly unexpected but its those two scenes that are so fundamentally wrong in just the basic facts of the show (along with retconing Dyson's love) that bother me so much about the episode.
50. TheUberFan
Last we heard about the Helskor was Bo saying to hell with the helskor...I'm gonna get my Yule on. So...3 episodes ago?

But then...I'm still wondering what happened to Crystal.

Maybe she's with Aife.
51. nypinta
I think the helskor shoes will be revisited. I do think that is what Bo needs to see the leviathan again. Because I think someone else is going to die. And I think Bo is going to go and get them. Someone pointed out that where Bo was is considered fae hell so she isn't going after Hale since he was a good man and wouldn't end up in hell. Tamsin might. Trick too. Maybe even Aife. I don't even have a guess anymore.
52. TheUberFan
Ha...I was the one (or maybe one of the ones) who suggested that because Levi was in fae hell, that the one who she goes for and loves very much is deserving of hell (or is perceived to be)...else, why would she see Levi again?
Maria Payne
53. Georgiana2494
All of you have done such a great job of dissecting the episode I don't think I could possibly add to it. I am having fun reading it.

I do think that Aife and Crystal are somewhere in a back room playing poker while hiding the Helskor.
Nicole Leapheart
54. BoxyFrown
Oh I just saw the episode and it made me so sad!!! Ksenia put in a performance, yall. I'm still wailing Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaale in my head. I could feel it coming. Ugh.

Oh a happy note, go Tamsin! Get you some little wolf puppies!

Vex, we all love you. Come back to us!
55. nypinta
Some questions they have left to answer:

Where is the other Helskor shoe.
Will we meet Angel, the French wolf shifter Dyson knew back in the day.
Where is the seed.
What happened to the necklace Bo found at Lauren's.
What is Lauren's plan.
What actually happened to Crystal.
Why did the Una Mens kill Pietra.
Who will kill Massimo.
Will Rainer try to get revenge on Tamsin.
What really really happened to Bo on the train.
With the Una Mens dead does Bo think she's back to being unaligned.
Where is Aife.
Who is going to be the actual new Ash.
What does being a shadow thief actually mean.

Just a few...
Susan White
56. whiskeywhite
@ Georgiana2494-- LOL: "I do think that Aife and Crystal are somewhere in a back room playing poker while hiding the Helskor." I do think the Helskor will return. Crystal, I'm not so sure about. But who knows, eh?
57. TheUberFan
Why would Bo think she's unaligned just because the Una Mens are dead? Her contract is with the dark, not the Una Mens. Their only role was to confirm that she indeed was aligned.

Also... Arabella looked up Rainer's name in the King's book and the text was all wiggly...and she said something like, "No...not again." Somehow the book remembered him even though he was written out of history...and Arabella recognized it.

And it was bad.
58. nypinta
We missed the obvious. It's Crystal's hand reacing for the 6th seed. Evony never let her go and someone stole the seed for her and being the type to never take on the dangerous tasks she three the seed to Crystal just to see what would happen. And presto! Another human is made a big bad. Then she takes out Massimo. Because the druid being brought low by a wannabe country singer cracks me up.
59. nypinta
I suspect that because the Una Mens are immune to fae powers they could remember him when no one else could. But Bo doesn't think things through so she might think that all she had to know was that she didn't mean to sign up with the Dark and poof that makes it not stick. Or he told her that the Una Mens were the keepers of the book that lists all fae and their alignment so if you get rid of them and get the book you can undo your declaration. Who knows what Bo thinks. She pretty much thinks that if she believes it then it's true.
60. Bore-mudaTriangle
I'm confused at the Trick and Tamsin recognition of Rainer.. This is all with the assumption Rainer is indeed the Wanderer, I just assume because the Una Mens called him the Wanderer..

Tamsin and Rainer are connected, Tamsin in a way helped him become the Wanderer. Trick recognized Rainer as the Wanderer when he walked in the Dal. Just because Tamsin said Rainer is not her boss, doesn't mean Rainer isn't the Wanderer. Just means that maybe someone acted/said he was the Wanderer or maybe an appearance change..? He got some plastic surgery on the train. ;) But this is why I am so confused..

If it wasn't Rainer who hired Tamsin, then why does the Wanderer card play such a significant role? Bo turns over the card(s), they rain down on Tamsin.. So I mean if it wasn't the actual Wanderer who hired Tamsin, then why go through all the trouble to imply it is the Wanderer?


Maybe Rainer just isn't the Wanderer.
61. TriSarahTops
Hello everyone!
I love reading everyone's comments and theories on this page, but this is the first time I've said Hello :)

Mostly I was moved to speak because OHMYGOSH what a heart breaking episode!! Kenzi is definitely one of my faves in the show and I actually started crying when she broke down. As much as lost girl has strange plot loop holes, any show that can deliver that level emotion has to be good. I can't even imagine all the implications for the relationships between kenzi-Bo (can they still be friends?), dyson-Bo (he might actually be angry with her?!) and all the other characters that cared for Hale.

One thing I hope they don't do is "brush over" everyones' grief. I have had a past boyfriend pass away unexpectedly (part of the reason why this episode struck such a chord with me) and it was one of the most excruciating things I have ever endured. I understand that tv shows can't have characters moping around for episodes on end, but I really hate it when days after a death, other characters are telling grieving loved ones that they need to "get over it" or "move on." Grief is such a large and unavoidable part of life. Media induced notions that death of a loved one is something to "get over" is one factor that makes loss a lot harder to deal with without beating yourself up.

I'll end my rant here - all in all definitely a riveting episode. Now please excuse me while I go re-watch the happy fun times of season one to bolster my spirits before the next episode
Nadine Robb
62. cmm
@ Bore-mudaTriangle This is exactly my whole thing with the wanderer as well. The fact that Tamsin did not recognize him at all. You think she would especially with the dealings she had with him. Unless she mistook the wanderer for someone else. Factor in that horse creature and Trick being concerned. Maybe it is the wanderer?????
63. nypinta
Vex is Bo's father. He's been Kaiser Sozeing us all from the beginning. (Hey, at this point anything can happen...)
Kiersten Hallie Krum
64. Kiersten
@TriSarahTops and @Bore-muda Triangle Hello and Welcome! I love that so many lurkers are coming out of the shadows to comment!
Susan White
65. whiskeywhite
Welcome @TriSarahTops and @Bore-muda Triangle. Both great screen names!

Thanks, @TriSarahTops, for sharing your personal experience with grief and the effect Hale's death had on you as a result. You can really identify with Kenzi.

@Bore-muda Triangle: "He got some plastic surgery on the train. ;)" Hee. They did a damn good job then. Yummy. As I said, some strange sh*t happens on trains.
Carmen Pinzon
66. bungluna
I kind of like the idea of the train being the 'entity' and Rainer being something other.

Great discussion. I only wish I could join y'all in read time. By the time I got here, everything I wanted to say had been said.

Bo sucks. Solo rules. WTF?! with everything else.
67. keriapollo
This is the first I've commented ever in a lost girl thread but honestly I'm so confused and flabbergasted by this series this season. I have read most comments and agree with many. LG first season amazing second ok but after that it has deteriorated in mass proportion. It all relationships we as audience have to fill in the pieces. Just like Bo and Lauren nothing was explained we as audience have to guess on our own. Bo and Dyson a little more explained but I'm still confused. And now this season I've just basically thrown up my hands and said I don't have a blasted clue of what is going on. There is so much potential and so much they could do with the ideas they've given. But it's just like putting together an entertainment center if you have poor directions that aren't explaining anything properly or fully your never gonna be able to put the stupid thing together.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
68. Kiersten
@keriapolo Hello and welcome! I'm so glad you chose to join our Lost Girl discussion here at H&H!

The entertainment center/directions is a *great* analogy for what seems to have happened with Lost Girl particularly in these last two seasons. I'd even say those directions are in a foreign language at this point. Like Klingon. ;)

I was off prepping the recap for S4E3 that will post on H&H tomorrow morning for the U.S. run of the show so apologies for not being able to chime in on all the comments individually tonight. Keep on being awesome with your reactions and interactions. You guys rock.
Suzanne Metaxas
69. SuzyM
After reading some of the posts certain things occurred to me. Kenzi becoming a Shadow thief may have been so she can now steal the Twig from Massimo and either she of Dyson will end him. I think the fun loving, carefree Kenzi is gone for a very long time to come. I think she will become very bitter and have very little compassion for anyone of anything. I think now instead of stopping Trick from dissecting the rat she is going to join him. I think the Fae had better be very afraid of this little human who is going to be taking revenge on all she feels were the reason for Hale's death.
Suzanne Metaxas
70. SuzyM
Also I think Massimo is the Morrigan's son. I think he is the one he stole the seed for. Think he is going to try and win her love by giving it to her. i think NYpinTA is right that he will swallow the seed and then get killed. I think he will swallow it when Morrigan rejects him again and then Kenzi will kill him with Geraldine.
71. jdknight
I thought Kenzi died as well. It seems that way by Bo's reaction. It would also be logical that it is her she goes to rescue when she meets Levi again. She has made it clear that Kenzi is the most important person in her life. I think that she is finally coming to the end of her dawning and what she does now will determine her future
72. scruffy
Just a thought... Given the wanderer is often a reference to Odin, the god associated with valkyries, is it possible that Rainer is Loki? Odin's son - known to cause chaos.
73. nypinta
@jdknight Bo used her succubus powers on Kenzi to calm her down. She didn't die. Besides, if Bo had taken too much that it was killing Kenzi she'd just give it back.

@scruffy There was speculation that Bo's father was Odin & for a whole I thought they were going that direction too. Still might. But according to Ryan there isn't a Loki. There are loki, as in a race of fae, of which he is one.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
74. Kiersten
Hey @scruffy and welcome! Thanks for leaving a comment!

@NYPinTA is right: In S2, Ryan said Loki were a race of Fae, not a specific person. BUT I don't think we can discount anything at this point nor is anything from past seasons sacred (except apparently a certain S3 relationship) so they could just as easily have Rainer be the original Loki if they wanted.
75. nypinta
*sigh* I miss Ryan.

In a way I wish this season and last were switched around. Last season should have been Bo 'going Dark' and her friends questioning her judegement and this season should have been everyone coming back together to defeat a set of humans that found out about fae and were exploiting them. Then the 5th season could have been all about Bo's actual father, not a fake out about the father. Because if it's switched than Bo wouldn't have been reunited with Aife until the end of this season and then Aife could tell her who her goddamn father is. Or give her a clue.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
76. Kiersten
I miss Ryan too. But then, we have so many men in this cast already...
78. hale fan 1
I think the leviathan will be thing to fix lost girl ho will visit the leviathan for Kenai and bring hale back I don't they are telling the trueth about the leaving party
Kiersten Hallie Krum
79. Kiersten
Hi Hale Fan 1 and Welcome! I would *love* for you to be right about that!
Susan White
80. whiskeywhite
Wow! Lots of people joining in! Welcome @keriapollo, @scruffy and @hale fan 1. I hope you'll keep those comments coming.

I, too, loved your analogy about the incomprehensible entertainment centre @keriapollo. We've got all sorts of leftover pieces lying around and we don't know where they fit.

I'm sorry to say @hale fan 1 that I don't think EA is lying about the going away party. She loves to be coy about the plot, but to lie about such a thing would be too heartless. I remember KCC joking about the death of Hale on Twitter ages ago. I wonder if he knew then?

I like your theory about Evony, Massimo and the seed, @SuzyM. I hadn't noticed that Massimo killed Hale with Geraldine (thanks @UberFaenatic). He definitely deserves to get his the same way.
81. Ron Grant
Have my comments been blocked? I don't see them on here.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
82. Kiersten
@RonGrant you're not blocked; you posted your comments on the E10 discussion post where we started talking about E11 until this space was available. You can see them here:
Nusi Dekker
83. NusiD
@Kiersten Ron Grant also posted spoilers about eps 10 & 11 in the comments section of your 4.02 recap. I went there to see if you had posted the recap of 4.03 yet.
85. feafeafea
Hi.I have not good language,then I have some questions about Bo and Lauren,because I don't understand.
Bo and Lauren will ever not be together?
Lauren will be beck in this show and (s4ep-12,13?)
And -(WHY) they are not together,what happenede between them?
86. erestella
Hi everybody!
I really loved your comments and speculations, but am I
the only one who thought really soon that something was odd in the
Rainer/Wonderer things? I mean, when Rainer says he is cursed, he
implies he can't get of the train, right? So, how would he possibly has
gone to meet with Tamsin asking her to find Bo? And he doesn't look at
all as the man we saw at the end of season 3 stuck in the middle of the
road. He doesn't even have a walking stick! I prefer to think that
another men is beside everything, someone who knew that Bo meeting
Rainer would have meant the end for the Una Mens...

PS Sorry for my english, it's not my mother-tongue...
Susan White
87. whiskeywhite
Hello, @feafeafea. Don't worry about your language. You are welcome here. The showrunner said in a recent interview that Lauren will be back in the next episode, 4.12. The simplest answer to why Lauren and Bo are not together is that Lauren broke up with Bo (remember the "break" in Season 3?). Lauren told Bo that she couldn't get what she needed from the relationship with Bo. More recently, Bo has shut out both Lauren and Dyson because she has decided she wants to be with Rainer. We don't know whether Bo and Lauren will get back together in the future. We'll have to wait and see.
Susan White
88. whiskeywhite
Hi back to you, @erestella. And welcome! Your English is fine. Good question -- where is the walking stick? :-)
89. feafeafea
thanks for the answer!
That- why I don't understand reason is- that ep 1,2 and 3 making good love between Bo and Lauren. It seems wasted scenes, if in the end-Bo and Lauren will be not together. :)
90. Bore-mudaTriangle
@erestella Yes, he isn't the one who hired Tamsin. She confirmed it this episode with the "That's not my boss." bit. So most of us believe there is someone else behind everything, unless Rainer can change appearance or something.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
91. Kiersten
Hello @erstella and Welcome!

@feafeafea your English is fine. Don't worry about it. We have several posters for whom English is not their first language. Glad to have you here.

It sounds like you're still watching season 3. Perhaps that's what's playing now in your country? Here in the U.S. and in Canada, we're on to season 4 and much has changed. There are recaps available for season 3 if you want to read them along with the episodes you're watching. You can find them here:
92. Ron Grant
@ Kiersten, thanks for pointing that out. I guess each episode has it's own thread. Hopefully I'll stay on track. So....two episodes left. Some questions answered, but others come up. I was starting to think (Gods Forbid!) that maybe Rainer was a good guy. That has since changed because of the picture appearing in the book. He lied to Bo about his name. If there is one thing she does not like is being lied to.
But going back to the start of E10 when she is looking at herself in the mirror. She looked as if she was having doubts about her slaughtering the Una Mens. Then when she's sitting on the bed she tells him "I want to trust you" then she/they talk about his being on this physical plane. There was an inkling of doubt there. But once he held her hand it seemed to fade, the guy definitely has the touch.
Ahhhh, the seed, where could it be. We know where it isn't anymore, I think Vex has or knows where it is. When he was with Trick and all the books stood up he was spooked. He did make a quick exit after it happened, too. Plus he was too quick to deny knowing about it. Massimo may have something to do with it because when Acacia was leaving she told Tamsin to be aware, that Massimo had something big planned. The Morrigan may have something to do with it, we haven't seen her since she called the archivist to give Bo her declaration have we. I can't see him giving it to her tho, the guys got to big an ego and he's smart enough to know his having the seed would give him power over her. @ nypinta, so many questions, I think one of Angels neices dogs took the shoe and buried it. Yes we will see Angel again, she has to tell Dyson her neices dog buried it and she needs him come sniff it out for her. They find the shoe, sell it and buy their own French vineyard and live happily ever after. And the seed? Dyson and Angel bought it from vex with some of the money from selling the shoe and planted it out in the back yard. Bo had to pawn the necklace at some funny gas station that has gumdrops buy the register. DL is going to use the Morrigans DNA to create a clone of her. Clone humans huh? Well watch this Bitch, I'm gonna clone you and then we're going to take you out. Then I'll have a lover that's head of the Dark Fae. The Morrigan gave Crystal 5 million dollars and a mini mansion next to a vinyard in France. The Una Mens killed Pietra because she helped Bo, I'm serious here. Who kills Massimo, I think Hale's spirit will come to Kenzie and tell her how to negate the power of the twig and then gut his butt, Russian style. Rainer will dump Bo for Tamsin, they will buy a small chateau next to a vineyard in Fance. THAT'S when Bo goes really dark. Hell hath no fury like a succubus scorned. What really happened to Bo on that Train? Hopefully they had condoms. That silly shit head Bo doesn't have a clue as to who she is. Rainer sucked all common sense out of her. That's why she's acting like an idiot. Aife is visiting some friends in France that just bought a vineyard. All I know is that the new ash better not turn out to be asholes like the first one whose name I can't remember because I have this thing in my eye, or Laughlin. Well duh....a shadow thief steals shadows. Either that or they crawl thru air ducts. As far as Bo's father is concerned, I think it's Trick's evil twin.
There, does that answer all of your questions. I know all these answers to be true because an Oracle told me they were. And NOW I'm going to put something in the oven so I don't have to nuke it later because I'm feeding my LG addiction. But seriously, the writers swill have to get their collective shit toghether if they want to keep the fantastic fan base that they enjoy. All shoes, eggs...I mean nuts aside, Bo will have to be humbled BIG TIME in front of her friends otherwise she may not have but one who lies to her about his name.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
93. Kiersten
@RonGrant - I'm monitoring 3 threads at one time. Believe me, it's confusing ;)

With regard to the Canadian broadcast, there is a new discussion thread posted on Monday mornings for the Sunday night aired episode. Of course, none of us can wait that long to talk about it, so we start our discussion on the previous week's thread and jump over to the new thread when it becomes available. I try to post the new link on the old thread as soon as possible.

For the U.S. run of the show, the full recap for the Monday night aired episodes posts at some point on Tuesday morning. I also try to post the link for those on the existing threads in case people want to revist the older episodes of season 4.

Clear as mud, right? 0_0
94. Ron Grant
You'll probably find some mistakes in my comment, spelling and what not. But it's not my fault. Some nasty looking horse with wings made me do it.
95. TheUberFan
I noticed that after Bo commented on Dyson turning into a jerk because of the Norn, she also adds that she broke his heart with Lauren. So there's that at least. lol
Nusi Dekker
96. NusiD
Thanks for pointing me to the new recap, @Kiersten!
Carmen Pinzon
97. bungluna
@RonGrant - What do you have against France that you're wishing this hot mess onto them? (joke)

And, once again, two episodes before the end of the season we are faced with so many dangling plots that there is no freaking way the writers can wrap them all up in less than two hours. And make sense, that is.

I do believe that they have a fifth season, though. EA is too smugly self-satisfied at this point not to have that in the bag.
98. Kaat
That's it, I'm done. The show is getting too disjointed and leaving too many loose ends that never get tied up, they just get forgotten or swept aside to fit a new script. I realize that the idea behind killing Hale is to get the show to be more 'real' and appeal to viewers emotions, but I feel like the death was shoehorned into the show, without a lot of forethought. When other popular series kill off characters they usually tie up plot lines a bit and the death has a purpose to the overall story (Think Joss Whedon or R.R Martin). In this case, it feels like a main character has been kiled with little thought about how it would leave a hole in the cast.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
99. Kiersten
Hey Kaat and welcome!

Yeah, it does seem to have come out of nowhere and that Hale was killed for dramatic effect more than anything but I have to allow that Kenzi's character journey at least has built to some major consequence since at least the kitsune kidnapping in S3. That it was Hale's death and they were only allowed to be a couple for a short time before then boom is an evil extreme Whedonesque cheat for sure. But we knew someone was dying and I'm not entirely convinced there's not going to be another major death too.

That said, the show is definitely disjointed, which is putting it mildly, really, and the loose ends, yeah they be a-danglin'. How the next two episodes play out will be decision making events for many viewers, I think, who are way past beyond fed up with Lost Girl.
100. Bore-mudaTriangle
So a lot of people, including myself, feel the Tamsin and Dyson kiss is just comfort and a mislead... but when Acacia said the thing about having wolf puppies, Tamsin tensed up and kinda looked uncomfortable, in a way that made it come off as "how did you know that?" So it all just seems weird to me. s:
101. nypinta
@Bore-mudaTriangle I think I said it upthread, or maybe just in my head, but I think Acacia was just reacting to Tamsin being so comfortable with another partner, which Dyson is & I think Acacia is the type of valkyrie that believes they shouldn't have any attachments except to their job. So it might have been her trying to get Tamsin back in line plus a touch of jealousy that Tamsin would put someone in the same position that she has. Because Acacia only just met Dyson and she hasn't been around, so it's not like she saw a pining Tamsin for the wolf man. I think maybe her saying it was what spurred Tamsin on later more so than if she had said nothing at all. In a wierd way it was like she hadn't considered it until Acacia opened her mouth. Tamsin strikes me as a contrary girl. ;)
102. Ron Grant
@ bungluna, none taken, the reason I chose France is because that's where Dyson met Trick. I just hope @nypinta isn't upset over my, what I hopefully she look upon, as just a comedic response to her questions. After all, with the way the show's been going it's almost comedic itself.
What I'd like to see is our finding out once and for all who Bo's father is. Maybe Aife will show up and then we all find out. She is looking for her daughter after all. So DL is going to be in E12, I wonder if we'll find out what she had in mind with Evony's DNA, I seriously doubt she'll be using it on herself. But like everybody says who knows what will happen next. I would like to see Acacia come back for at least one more episode.
Question, if Rainer isn't his real name then why did the handmaiden call him that. And if he isn't Rainer/the wanderer than what is his real name. How is it that he had the card. When he looked up at her and saw her eyes had turned blue he knew what she was and then asked her the trick question about what Dark Fae fed on. The butterfly, I don't think we'll ever find out about that. But I think what the big question above all else is who the Irkalla is Bo's father. If we get closure on that matter then maybe the writers can start tying up the rest of it all.
There has been some discussion about Loki being a clan. Apparently so because Ryan did say that they were a clan. But, doesn't Thor have a half brother named Loki? That's what his name is not a clan he is from because he is actually a son of the frost giant's king. I think it's the king anyway. Hey, why not bring some Asgardian in the show. Is Asgard the name of the place where Odin lives. I'll have to check it out. @UberFaenatic, I was looking at that picture, is it a teaser for one of the next episodes? It is a woman but I can't tell from the eyes who it could be either. I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's Bo and she's gone back to medieval times to slay the pyrapuss(is that how it's spelled ?)He seems to be on his way from the way Trick was talking. Someone asked about how long everyone had lost their memory of Bo. I'm not exactly sure but I think I remember someone saying 30 days or so. We know that the train stops were 3 days apart. And Bo definitely missed a few stops. It could just be fifteen. I'll be watching the seasons episodes after this is all over, maybe there are a few clues that we overlooked. Something I've been wondering about where the seed was at the end of E10. There is a circulation fan in the background, did anyone notice one in the Una Mens lair. If not then it could be a warehouse, maybe down by the docks. Right now I'm treating this like the weather, I'll just wait and see. @ NusiD, thanks for ratting me out. lol Just thought I'd play wanderer for a bit.
@ Kiersten, I think I may owe a huge number of fans an apology because of my posting comments about these past two episodes. It bums me out that I did that. I know what I did wrong now so it won't happen again. By the way, I live here in the states about 7-8 hours south of Toronto. But I have found a site that lets me watch the Showcase airing of the show the day after it airs. So I'm on par with you folks up there. So we have two weeks before E12 airs and then 2 weeks again after that? I have just recently brought another faenatic into the fold. He's a friend that lives in a nursing home. I brought my computer up one day and we watched the series premier. Now when I go to visit him he asks me if I brought my computer. I'm on season4 myself but he and I are just starting season 2, we watch a show maybe two then when I go back up there I go back one episode to help him stay on top of it. So we have a 71 year old faenatic. Again I owe a lot of people a huge apology for my possibly ruining it for them. That won't happen again.
Nadine Robb
103. cmm
@Kaat I agree with you, that is a large part of where the show lost me. I will watch the last episodes of this season but as for season 5, the chances of me watching it are slim.
104. TheUberFan
@Ron Grant... I'm convinced that much if not all of Bo's memories after she returned to the train and Rainer glowed her were false and were custom suited to lure her into thinking of him as a tortured hero type who stands up for the little people against oppression. So any memory Bo had from Waves is suspect to me.

I do however trust the raw memories she personally recovered thanks to Ianka's songs...and that paints an entirely different picture. That, I think, is part of what really happened and it wasn't a glorious finding of one's other half/destiny. It was terrifying and angering and whatever was done to her, has changed her into something even Bo doesn't really recognize. That she immediately dismissed Tamsin's warning about her employer and believed entirely what she "remembered"...even down to a butterfly that just so happens to look exactly like the one she tried to rescue as a little girl (what a coincidence! no manipulation there, no siree)...should be a huge red flag.
105. nypinta
@RonGrant You weren't serious? I'm bummed now. ;P

BTW, I'm not kidding about Vex being Bo's father. I mean... come on... awesome, right? He's been RIGHT THERE THE WHOLE TIME! He was the one that went after Lou Ann so he could find out where she hid Bo as a baby. Weasled his way into her home so he could get to know her better. Disapproves of her lovers (Dyson & Lauren) but cozies up to her bestie. Classic dad move.

Ok, I'm kidding just a little.
106. TheUberFan
And Bo already perceives Vex as her annoying brother. How fae would it be for him to be her daddy? Or is that just a Greek tragedy in the making...

Or...a soap opera. The Faes of Our Lives.

Carmen Pinzon
107. bungluna
@Ron Grant - Please continue speculating. I would have left this show a looong time ago if it wasn't for Kiersten's very entertaining recaps and the addictive discussions we have about it.
108. melonnabanana
I am loving this thread right now. The only thing I really have to add, because i just watched and am still digesting this, is one question. Is Hale really forever dead? They spent a large portion of this episode repeating the line "dead is not always dead". I wonder if there is a way to bring Hale back. Also...why did it take 4 seasons to finally show Hale's bad ass side? It's a shame he spent all these episodes kind of being the wimpy sidekick. While it was great finally seeing him go off it's still a shame. I'd love to see Dyson and Tamsin together, although I could ultimately see Tamsin choose her friends (girl code) over a relationship with Dyson (Bo'd ex, refer to girl code) because she's been trying sonhard to be a good person. I don't know what is up with the writing team. This is not good. I have no idea where this is going and I feel like the writers are making some really dumb ass decisions. I am pretty speechless at how much nonsense they are pushing us as "great tv"
Kiersten Hallie Krum
109. Kiersten
"The Faces of Our Lives" @bungluna that kills me. Totally stealing it for the twitter

@melonnabanana so glad you're loving the discussion! in EA's post mortem interview she said that Hale is "dead dead" & they had a party for KC Collins & everything. But she is a notorious liar about these things, so...
110. TheUberFan
@Kiersten...that was moi. :P

And I said "Faes" not "Faces." lol! :D
111. TheUberFan
"Like sands through the Una Mens are the Faes of our lives."
Kiersten Hallie Krum
112. Kiersten
Sorry @UberFaenatic. Doing this on my phone, in the dark w/glasses whose Rx is 10 years old so lots of blurry. frankly surprised its even in English. But yeah, totally heard the sands in the hourglass deal in my head
113. keriapollo
Thanks for the welcoming comments!!!
115. newgirl
Wow, this is my first time here, i can't believe i've been missing these discussions!!! T.T, for once when i saw the chapter i though of erasing Kenzi's mind, hope they don't... really, it will only delay the outcome, and when the outcome came to pass (because writers won't let that point rest in peace) it may be total disaster for the Kenzi/Bo frienship, i don't know how it may recovers from that, because right now, yes Hale is dead, but in time (short..long... whenever) Kenzi would have to come to terms with it and understand that there was nothing Bo was able to do at that moment, there was not enough chi, not even if she drained Kenzi out i think it would have been enough. And there is also Bo not being there for Kenz almost the entire s4... which is been happening a lot since S3, ever since Kenz got the "rash" from her visit to the norn..., lately Bo seems to take Kenz for granted... though giving some thinking to the idea she kinda always did... same when aife showed up and then ryan, but lately it's been worse, she is self centered and not taking into account the hard times Kenz is having coping with everyone around her having some sort of super power and she always having to play in the safe zone and not been able to help when it most matters, which really have her frustrated, even more since Bo disapearing last season finale.
By the way Ksenia what a performance!!!!! i've repeated that part (I WAS GONNA SAY YES!!!) almost 5 times (although it brokes my heart every time) just to see it, i even think she really hit Anna more than twice with some force on the arms, really great acting!!! Tamtam and Dyson, i don't know... i kinda see something last season, not to open but i thought i saw some interest in her sights towards him, but right now i can't quite remember even the chapter
Jay Cruz
116. JayCruz61
I'm not sure if this was posted but just in case it wasn't, I'm posting. This is an Interview made by Emily Andras concerning the episode being discussed, "End of a Line." There's some interesting view points that may shed some light as to the direction in which the show is going. Please let me know what you think. Here's the link.

P. S. It doesn't seem as though Hales character isn't coming back.
Jay Cruz
117. JayCruz61
I'm sorry for my grammatical error. That should be, "is" instead of , "isn't".
118. nypinta
@melonnabanana I wonder if all the "dead is not dead" talk was to give false hope. Or to make Hale's death even more tragic because even in the magical world of the fae he was still gone. Because it seems cruel that Tamsin thought Acacia was dead but she wasn't, everyone thought Massimo was dead but he wasn't, the voodoo lady was able to bring back so many dead.... but Hale is still gone. (Unless it is a giant fake out and he is going to be saved by Bo.)

The thing though with his death being unexpected is, that's how death usually is. I do agree that they should have spent more time on Kenzi and Hale as a couple and he could have been fit into Waves as another part of the team going undercover. Not sure why they didn't. This show has a tendency of thinking a line or two covers all the ground they need when setting up something like this. But it doesn't. Hence a lot of the reaction to the episode. But if you're going to raise the stakes of a show (not that they necessarily had to, but that was what they decided to do) real life consequences have to be played out. Hale, sadly, was the only logical choice. They could have killed of Kenzi to make the tragedy that Bo was putting Keniz's needs second and deal with her guilt for the rest of this season and next (if they get it.) Or Lauren because whatever plan she has doesn't work, reinstating the danger of being a human in the fae world. But they obviously have a story for Lauren still, where as there really wasn't anything more to do with Hale, (without bringing his family back into the show and I think that just cost too much. Although I would like it if they brought Val back.)
119. Ron Grant
As much as I am hesitant to put this out here, because of my getting "lost"yesterday. I'm putting forward this theory about what happened when the Bo broke whoever the hell that guy is curse, The train just disappeared and they were left standing on the tracks. Either that or the last stop was in front of the Dal. (just kidding about the latter) but the former may make some sense. And I hope I'm on the right thread, I do not want to be an anal spoiler for others who haven't watched the episodes I am commenting on here. Guess I'll find out in a second.
120. nypinta
It'd be interesting if setting him free also meant that Bo set all those cursed souls free too. Either so they can move on, meaning it was a good thing she did. Or to create havoc on the living, meaning it was bad. But I guess it was just Rainer she saved.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
121. Kiersten
Hey @newgirl and Welcome! Thanks for joining our discussion!
Kiersten Hallie Krum
122. Kiersten
@RonGrant - you are in the correct place. You can always got to the top of the page and check the season and episode number to be shre if you have doubts.

We talked about EA's post mortem article earlier in the thread. She does seem to be pushing that Hale is dead for good and K.C. Collins exiting the show and everything. But everyone else here is also correct: one of the themes this year along with 1. can you be who you are if you don't have your memory and 2. the past always catches up with you is 3. "dead" is not necessarily "dead". Also, K.C. Collins has be noticeably quiet on social media since tweeting that he couldnt really say anything due to spoilers. But I do think Hale as we know him is dead and I think resurrecting him would cheapen the emotional impact of Kenzi's reaction and the very real consequences she's living out because of her obsession with getting Fae power, which was driven by fear for her life in the Fae world after Bo abandoned her not for the first time only this time, Bo wasn't even in her memory. Kenzi is constantly telling Bo she's fine when she isn't so that Bo can go save the day somewhere else and she's been waiting for Bo to realize that she, Kenzi, needs Bo more than anyone else and Bo has been too caught up in being The Champion/Hero/Chasing After Doctor Lauren/Chasing After the Train to pay any attention until something major like the kitsune kidnapping happens. Now it's all come to a head and undoing the catalyst that has finally erupted all this out into the open would be an easy cheat that this one consistant storyline doesnt deserve
Jackie Lester
123. JackieLester
@nypinta I'm still in full denial about Hale's fate but there is a lot of that "you're supposed to be dead" confusion.

@Kiersten Has there ever been a reference to a Hades-like character? Someone with dominion over the underworld kind of thing? With so many reincarnations (or whatever they are considered) perhaps this will tie into the story with the train too? (The Chris DeBurgh song "Spanish Train" comes to mind...)
Kiersten Hallie Krum
124. Kiersten
@JackieLester - not directly. There's the Hellskor (hell shoes) and the introduction of the Levithan in the Underworld an then the idea of the bat-winged horse being the Pryyipus who in mythology dragged the death chariot, and then the Death Train and the idea that Bo's father (and Bo herself) can resurrect people. So we have those allusions or implications, but no one has explicitly come out as Hades or a Hades-like character. With so many shades of evil amongst the Light and Dark Fae, it's hard to choose one of them as the ulitmate evil, although I think we all can agree they've been setting up Bo's still-unseen-at-this-point-anyone-is-going-to-be-a-letdown mysterious father
125. nypinta
Since they're skipping a week they probably won't release promo photos till later, will they? Bummer.
126. Ron Grant
@nypinta, I hadn't thought about the haindmaiden and the uh, what is the name of that guy's position who was announcing the train stops. Anyway, what did happen to them once the curse was broken. The handmaiden did say they needed her. How did she wind up on that train Maybe she was brought there by the crows, Rainer realized she wasn't the "one" and just kept her there to be his servant. I was going say they wound up in Irkalla but that is just something else we'll probably never know about.
I did a quick search about Odin. Asgard is where he resides, he has two sons, Thor, his true son and Loki his mischevious step son who he adopted after the Asgardians defeated the Frost Giants. Sometimes Loki's mischeviousness ( I think that's a word) would border on being malicious. So he would have to rectify the situation or step-daddy would be all over his frosty butt. So maybe Odin is Bo's father, it would make sense in a way because of Acacia and Tamsin being Valkyries. Maybe it was Thor, from what I read he's not the nice guy we think he is. He was a nasty, kick ass dude. There is a horse in this mythology that I read. Maybe it went to get Bo for Odin who is ready to claim his ideal mate. And the Valkyries did ride on winged horses to bring fallen soldiers to Valhalla.
I just had a crazy idea, lets get Lucy Lawless (Xena) on the show. She was around during that period. Then she can teach Kenzi "the pinch" she'd be a kick ass human then. She used to be a Valkyrie at one time too, Xena that is. So she would know all about Odin. She kicked Odin's ass one time to get the Golden Apples so she could get Aphrodites and Ares their Olympian God powers back to restore balance to the world. I watched it with my friend at the nursing home, that's why I thought he would like Lost Girl. But it still doesn't tell us who this fake Rainer guy is. I don't think he went to some battlefield to pay respects to the fallen. He's going after the helskor shoe. Angel will still have to get Dyson to help her find out where that dam**d dog buried the other one, tho. And I'm not serious either. I wonder what happens to a dog when it has the shoe in it's mouth. But enough of that, time to get serious again. And seriously, the writers had better get more of these loose ends tied up soon. And Ron Grant may disappear because a lonewolf may have taken his place. I just got the idea because I have a picture of a white wolf running thru a snowfield. I'd like to put the picture of the wolf on here but I don't know how. I'll figure it out in time. Well, I have satisfied my Bo/chi sucking, who the heck is Bo's daddy addiction for now. I'll be back later to get another fix.
127. TheUberFan
I was thinking about the cursing nail episode.

Bo's first instinct was to pull all the nails because the idea of people being cursed was an offense to her but the shaman (I think that's what he was) told her, no...some of these people are evil and are cursed legitimately.

Now advance to Bo on the train. If she's been led to believe that Rainer is a good guy, a tortured hero who was cursed for standing up for the people (which I believe is the case here)...she might have been led to believe the others on the train were cursed wrongly too. But I think, as I've said several times here and presented my case thusly :P, that Bo's Waves memories are planted and phony and were used to get her to end the curse and make her putty in Rainer's plans.

I'm back to thinking Rainer is working for the big bad too, btw. And I think that big bad is the real Wanderer...the main Wanderer...and Bo's father...and that Rainer is manipulating Bo for his own purposes and for that of her father.

Of course my opinions could change in a week or so, if we get answers that directly contradict my theories :D but I am extremely confident that Rainer isn't what he seems and Bo's Waves memories are crap.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
128. Kiersten
But at this point, does it even matter? Bo chose a stranger over people who love her and have stood beside her for years through horrible things, some of whom have brutally sacrificed and risked themselves solely on her behalf. A couple hours with this guy, a sob story, and a butterfly and he takes center stage in her life so much that she goes on to emotionally eviscerate those same people on his behalf? No. She's experienced too much betrayal with the Fae, too much of what is seen isn't what it seems to do so easily and yet she still does it. Which is one of many things that makes it so out of character and which, combined with all the other shit she's pulled recently, has eroded her character to a point from which I'm not sure she can believeably return.

I still think it's possible for Bo to go evil this season. There's been a lot of throwaway moments, many of which have been mentiond in these discussions, starting with her Galadrial moment in S3's Ceremony, hell, all the way back to the same when she saved Trick in S2 finale. The smile when Massimo hits the lava, the over-reaction fury to DL's defection, her treatment of Kenzi, her treatment of Dyson, her back talk to Trick, the easy way she's outright killed people since hooking up with Rainer. If Rainer is in league with Bo's father (and I think that likely) and this has al been one long con on his part to bring Bo to his side as queen, eroding the very essensce of Bo's character - "I will live the life I choose" vs "Sometimes you can't fight fate/He is my destiny" - has to be done first and a large part of that is disassociating her from the people who ground her. So yeah, the S4 cliffhanger could be her taking over all the Fae since Aoife's already said Bo is the most powerful Fae.

Which leads me to this: what if Bo took the seed?
129. TheUberFan
I think Bo believes she hasn't been brainwashed, but all her behavior speaks to the contrary. She's emotionally crippled by the triangle (which is a false dilemma, I might add since the only viable member of that triangle was Dyson since Lauren had broken up with her a few times)...but then all the sudden she's all Rainer all the time?

She who will live the life she chooses is all about a singular destiny that's out of her hands?

I think the manipulation to her soul is subtle enough that the people around her notice something's wrong but she isn't going full on evil on them...but it's noticeable to us to see a selfless, loving character turn into this hot mess.

And we do know someone wants her to be a queen, thus that crown in her real memories and her anger at seeing it. It seems she recognized the significance and wanted nothing of it.

And her real memory of first seeing the glowy print of the hand while she was still on the train. She was truly terrified. "No, please no. I can't do this."

So Rainer and the Wanderer needed her to be pliant, and the only way to make that happen was make her believe she did everything of her own free will for all the right reasons...and yet, she's still off.

As for her being the one to take the would she have known about it initially? Kenzi saw it in In Memoriam, but it had no significance to her, unless she took it as maybe being worth something she could hock for sparkly power. If so, did Bo see it and recognize it somehow?

Then there's that wounded hand reaching for it. Who was it? Where was it? Was that real or was it memorex? Did the person attached to that hand actually take the seed and consume it? Who has it now if no one's eaten it?
130. TheUberFan
BTW... I mentioned the cursing nail episode. Where is that Bo? She put her life in danger to save Nadia because Lauren loved her and she did it knowing that no one would know what she did.

That was selfless and giving and loving. That was the Bo we know.

I don't recognize this Bo right now at all, but then she doesn't really either.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
131. Kiersten
As for her being the one to take the would she have known about it initially?

Why should that matter? Lost Girl pays little to no attention to the hows and whys of things, certainly not to consistency and plot logic. Why should this be any different?
Susan White
132. whiskeywhite
Funny, @Ron Grant: "I think one of Angels neices dogs took the shoe and buried it."

Rimshot indeed, @UberFaenatic: "Faes of Our Lives."

Glad you found us, @newgirl. If you really like what you read there's a couple of years worth of our fabulous (and yes, @bungluna, addictive) past discussions available for reading here at H&H. (Too much?) Welcome @Kaat as well.

Good idea, @nypinta:
I think Acacia is the type of valkyrie that believes they shouldn't have any attachments except to their job. So it might have been her trying to get Tamsin back in line plus a touch of jealousy...
That would make more sense than if she was (quasi) serious. Much like Aife calling Bo out for dating Dyson the "Ken doll" (actually, one of the things I like about KHR is that he's not one of the young cookie cutter pretty boys you see all over TV these days).

Nice story, @Ron Grant, about your 71 year old friend and new LG fan (and a kind action on your part). There may be more older people who are LG fans than you think. I'm almost 65 (as those who can do math may have figured out, and much as I can't believe it. But I do love those senior's discounts).
Kiersten Hallie Krum
133. Kiersten
Let's not miss the fact that no one except Crystal and possibly Trick and/or Evony knows about DL's murderous history with pipe bombs and/or of her missing brother. Likewise, no one alive but Bo and Dyson (because he went with her) knows what she did to release ComaNadia from the curse. There's a lot we as an audience "know" that may or may not apply that the characters remain ignorant of. It seems the show often uses that cheat to claim that those revelations happen "off screen" but it's just that - a cheat.
134. nypinta
The cursing nail episode was in Season 2. Dyson went with her. (Even though he didn't have his love for her anymore.) Would be interesting if one of those nails she pulled did start all of this, but I think they would have mentioned it by now. They might revisit it later though, which would be cool.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
135. Kiersten
Dyson went with her. (Even though he didn't have his love for her anymore.)

Jeez, what an asshole...
136. TheUberFan
I think @Kiersten makes a very valid point though, @nypinta.

Who cares about continuity and past history when there's a cool story to be told? That Bo has no way of knowing about the seed makes no difference if they want Bo to have the seed. Just like it doesn't matter that only ghost Crystal and Evony and/or Trick know about Lauren's life as a fugitive...although Bo and Kenzi both have seen the "wanted" paper, they don't know the details.

Oh and I referred to Crystal as a ghost because I'm guessing she must have died from those hand cuffs, which is why she's disappeared off the screen and out of everyone's minds. (Now watch her make an appearance in episode 12 ;))

And yep, Dyson did go with her to help her out. As many times as I've seen these episodes, I don't remember how he found out she was going and decided to tag along as support but I do remember the funny scene with Peggy. lol
137. nypinta
I mentioned it on IMDB I think when someone was talking about how Bo helps people selflessly, and for the most part she does. She sticks her nose in where it doesnt' belong and helps people out all the time. Much of the time she does so by leaping before looking, which drives me bonkers, as well as her tendency to think everyone is over hyping the danger and ignores their warnings... but whatever. That's not for now. I know I've argued against the selfish tag regarding Bo, however, her always working on behalf of other people seems near compulsion now. Almost like she can't help herself and although it might not be selfish it is self-centered. Because is she really doing it for the people she helps or is she doing it to make herself feel good? So Kenzi calling her out on it was correct, even if she said it during a moment of stress. At first she didn't want to get invloved, but Kenzi convinced her to do so. I think she's a bit addicted to it now. And if she is being manipulated, they picked the perfect way to do so, by giving her someone to save.

I just really hope all of this makes sense by the finale. I'm OK with them holding something over for next season, but Rainer & Bo's current behavior better be solved.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
138. Kiersten
I don't remember how he found out she was going and decided to tag along as support but I do remember the funny scene with Peggy.
Bo asked him to come along as back up, part of her whole "I trust you no matter what" thing. Her subtext was also that she'd take any chance to spend time with him. I'm not sure he knew about the particulars of the cursed nail, but he knew she needed to get the other artifact to exchange it with the shaman for ComaNadia's nail. Outside of Lachlan (and Trick who directed them to the shaman) Dyson is the only one of her intimates who knew she was on a mission on DL's behalf.
139. nypinta
Jeez, what an asshole...
He was just trying to force himself on Bo, you know. By... helping... and stuff.

@UberFaenatic, I was still typing my response when she posted, so I wasn't trying to make a point, just mentiong the timing of the nail episode. In case it looked like something else.

The only thing is the hand was definitely shown to be bloody. That's all we really know. Who was injured? Vex and Massimo. And maybe Crystal. ;) I don't think Aife is making another appearance this season, even though I think it should be her but for reasons tht are too late now that Bo killed the rest.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
140. Kiersten
He was just trying to force himself on Bo, you know. By... helping... and stuff.

Thank God there's not a man like that in my life.
Wait. Hang on...
141. TheUberFan
Right...I just looked up Masks too to remind myself what happened. Bo goes to the Dal looking for help from Trick about what a Preta is and how to deal with it. Trick advises her to take along support and Dyson volunteers as back up. He quips, "I didn't have anything better to do today anyway." Yeah, because we all go on life or death missions because we're bored. lol

Trick gives her Ysabeau's bracelet to trade (this is before Bo knew Trick was her grandfather and that this was her grandmother's bracelet) and they're off.

As for Bo and her behavior...I honestly truly do feel like she's under a spell. Literally. In the what I call fake memory Bo has from Waves, she believes she's there to free a wronged man and save his soul. Later in End of A Line, Bo talks about adding value to a relationship and that with Rainer, she fulfilled a destiny and broke a curse, and then minimized and wrongly characterized the circumstances behind her not being with either Dyson or Lauren and acknowledged she broke Dyson's heart with Lauren last year. The fact was, Lauren has not been an option in Season 4. Dyson was and he was hers for the taking had she wanted him.

Kenzi calling her out about her selfishness resonates because there's a lot of truth in it. Even when Bo catches herself screwing up, it doesn't keep her from making the mistake again. She talks a good game about the people she loves meaning so much to her, but last year she was too caught up in her hunger (she was starving herself by only feeding off of Lauren because she wanted to pretend she could be monogamous with a human) that she was totally oblivious as to what happened to her with the Norn and didn't listen when she needed to talk.

All throughout her relationship with Lauren, she'd talk about how important she was to her and how much she meant to her...but she always found a way to be somewhere other than where Lauren asked her to be. She was always busy with her own business.

And this year, she's been all about herself and her issues. Granted, there are quite a few issues so I don't blame her for being overwhelmed...but she's completely blinded to everyone elses' pain and issues because hers are what matters to her most.

And yes, she did take Kenzi's chi without any intention of using it on Hale because Kenzi told her she'd never forgive her if she allowed Hale to die and that was too much for her to bear. So I expect this thread to continue and it needs to not be retconned like so many other things have to fit an agenda (such as unnaturally prolonging the Triangle deep into season 4).
Kiersten Hallie Krum
142. Kiersten
minimized and wrongly characterized the circumstances behind her not being with Lauren and acknowledged she broke Dyson's heart with Lauren last year.

Not to mention the egregious misrepresentation and outright lying about the circumstances that led to Dyson having his love stolen ("gave" it away, my ample ass) from him much less his state of mind and behavior in S2.
143. TheUberFan
Yeah I agree with that entirely @Kiersten.

I also added to that comment:
that with Rainer, she fulfilled a destiny and broke a curse, and then minimized and wrongly characterized the circumstances behind her not being with either Dyson or Lauren and acknowledged she broke Dyson's heart with Lauren last year. The fact was, Lauren has not been an option in Season 4. Dyson was and he was hers for the taking had she wanted him.
I think that's an important distinction. And I've been wondering if she's deluded herself, something she does quite well btw, into believing it was still a "contest" and that way she wouldn't have to finally acknowledge that maybe she didn't want Dyson back after all. While there was still a race, she could use that rivalry to convince herself that she doesn't want to hurt either of them by choosing one over the other.

When in reality, she just didn't want to deal with the fall out of making her true intentions known.

I find this behavior cowardly and not at all fair to Dyson, who deserves a lot better than that.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
144. Kiersten
that way she wouldn't have to finally acknowledge that maybe she didn't want Dyson back after all. While there was still a race, she could use that rivalry to convince herself that she doesn't want to hurt either of them by choosing one or the other.

I disagree (Surprise!) because there is absolutely nothing in her attitude or behavior toward Dyson in S2 and even in S3 and definitely not in S4 to say anything about her not still having very deep feelings for him, like, say, the end of Ceremony where it was so obvious, even Doctor Lauren couldn't ignore it and the end of S4E7 at The Dal where she and Dyson are clearly having an deeply intimate moment or when she touches his face at the end of S4E6. It is only when she gets off the train with Rainer that she suddenly for the very first time makes noises about maybe not being in love with Dyson any more. Which is just more of the utter bullshit she's been spouting about everything that involves Rainer even tangentially since that moment. And Dyson is just too miserable and hurt and empty by her whiplash behavior to see through it to the fact that she is utterly delusional about just abot everything at this point.

Hey look. I'm still pissed off about it. Huh.
Susan White
145. whiskeywhite
Interesting thinking, @UberFaenatic, about Bo's feelings around Dyson (and Lauren).

On the cursing nail thing, the other important thing about Dyson saying, "I didn't have anything better to do today anyway" is that Ciara was out house hunting for their love nest (mansion). He chose going with Bo over that.
146. TheUberFan
I don't really agree with that either though. lol

He was available to her. He went to find her and helped rescue her against the jumby. They were pretend married. They were together a lot, physically and otherwise.

But as soon as Bo saw Lauren, she emotionally dropped him and wanted to rekindle her fantasy with Lauren...and even after being rejected AGAIN, she pretended Lauren was still on the table because that made things easy for her.

And yes, I think her angsting over her pretend triangle issue, as emotionally crippling as she says it is, is still easier than dealing with the fall out of finally cutting Dyson off and letting him go, because then she'd be alone and have no one to dramaqueen over.

I wonder how Dyson would have felt if he knew he had been referred to as a battery recharger and that Bo was ready to dump him on a whim to get back with Lauren and pretend they never parted. I doubt he'd be too thrilled.

That's not to say they haven't shared some sweet moments. But he was available to Bo from the start. Bo could have had him...could have taken him back at any time and he would have jumped at it. But she did not want to and it's all under the guise of I don't want to make a choice between these two.

That Waves, Bo has lost her bloody mind and I truly believe is under a spell, which I hope someone figures out at some point.
147. TheUberFan
Yep that's right @whiskeywhite. In fact, Trick was teasing him as to what a burden the idea of having an extravagant home and a wealthy, powerful wife would be. lol

I find it hard to see Dyson fitting in with the hoity-toity crowd, Dis-Members Only notwithstanding. ;)
148. Darthfaeder
I still haven't recovered and am still angry as hell at having to watch
Tamsin hop on to Dyson's lap and practically beg him. Shit wtf have
they done to Tamsin! They screwed Bo up and what it's not enough
to screw Bo up so now they have to mess up Tamsin too? WTF has
happened to this show? WTF has happened to the writing on this show? I am going to question if LG will even see a season 5 now?
They managed to piss just about everyone off it seems.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
149. Kiersten
Yeah but see, that's where the only way anything makes sense is to accept that every and anything that happens between Bo and Doctor Lauren happens outside of the usual constraints of the rest of the show because otherwise it makes absolutely no sense and blatantly ignores what's happened in other places. Even Bo's behavior when she's with DL outside of the rest of the group is markedly different (and not in a good way) than when she's with Dyson or Dyson and Kenzi or Kenzi etc. Bo only talks shit about Dyson or disregards him when she's with DL and not because he means less but because allow her to demonstrably acknowledge him in the same way she does when she's with him or with others - I love this side of you - undermines the fantasy that is doccubus pure love foresaking all others and we can't have that! The direct hypocrisy she exhibits about him whenever the episode is doccubus focused is too acute not to be deliberate. Even in the "Dyson backstory" episode, it was really a doccubus episode (with more contradictions) in which only the very end acknowledged the strengthening of that intimate link between Bo and Dyson as a result of her journey as it happened in a nonromantic way between Dyson and Kenzi when they body-swapped in S2.

If nothing else, the same argument can be made in Dyson's favor, that as soon as DL is off the screen, Bo immediately beelines back to Dyson. As soon as he shows up (and without DL's "No Dyson" rule in play) she's jumping on him without a second thought (and with good reason) for the missing DL and/or the now-Dark Fae aligned DL. It's not as aggressively called out in the dialogue as it is in the doccubus episodes because it wouldnt be a doccubus episode (and now, apparently, a Rainer episode) without ample man hate heaped on Dyson, but it still happens.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
150. Kiersten
@DarkFaeder - they have indeed managed to piss off everyone. It's actually quite an admirable feat when you think about it. Unfathomable, but still, quite the accomplishment. Maybe that was the point in order to reset everything. The pre-season warning was to take everything we thought we knew about Lost Girl and turn it on its head, which is a ballsy thing to do if you're going to do it well. If you're going to do it with shitty plots, character assassinations, and crap logic, that's gonna backfire as the audience you've cultivated for four seasons isn't interested in watching that show, but it's still ballsy.
151. TheUberFan
@DarthFaeder... Tamsin just spent the entire episode listen to Bo go on and on about her destiny with Rainer and her feelings and going for it and I think she's heart weary.

Acacia mentions having wolf pups which I think plants the idea in her mind... but standing a foot from Bo and watching her talk about her endless feelings for Rainer pushed her over the edge and I think she needed to vent.

Maybe she's trying to get over Bo, who's in Rainer land right now. Maybe she just wants to feel something other than loneliness, and knows that Dyson is safe and feels the kind of emptiness she does.

That's my take anyway. It makes sense but it's so sad watching it, seeing her wanting to get lost in the arms of another who is as equally lonely and heart weary.
152. TheUberFan
@Kiersten... I sort of agree. But the issue remains that Lauren has never been on the table this season. Regardless of what Bo pretends, Dyson is an option and Lauren is not.

If anything the Rainer arc does right, it at least kills the Triangle. But I still submit that Bo is still under some spell.

I think that crown is still an issue and who knows what else.
Marie Sullivan
153. minime2
I just want to make one point. Last season we all talked about how awful it would be to have the writers retcon an entire season by having 3.13 end with Bo still being in the temple and now this season we are all waiting for someone to pop out and say BOO surprise this is all a fake altered reality, created by Reiner, and nothing that happened this season is real. The fact that many fans are waiting for the writers to do what we thought was the worst idea last season IMO shows a real decline. With 2 episodes left this season I get the feeling that this is the show and Ashton Kutcher will not pop out anytime soon and say "You've been punked by Rainer, Bo".

Oh and a small rant, WTF with Bo saying that she hurt Dyson with Lauren?!??? Dyson was pretty clear that he was supportive of that relationship and would wait and at no point ever said anything else nor did he ever make a move except to say we will have out own time. God I hate how angry this show makes me and that I can't stop watching it! Oh Hale :(
Kiersten Hallie Krum
154. Kiersten
But the issue remains that Lauren has never been on the table this season. Regardless of what Bo pretends, Dyson is an option and Lauren is not.

Yes. Absolutely. Which is why his is the greater pain. DL moved on long before Rainer showed up (despite E8 & E9 that conveniently ignore the rest of S4) and even shouts at Dyson "She shut us out!" when he refuses to give up on Bo while she's off murdering people with Rainer and remembering planted memories. So yeah, totally agree she has not been an option all season which gets ignored when it becomes inconvenient, like most of Dyson's journey does.
155. nypinta
I do think part of the scene with Tamsin and Dyson and her saying repeatedly to "come on" was a call back to Vexed when Bo had to basically beg Dyson to be with her so she could heal. And it's another example of Dyson only being with someone because they initiated it. Bo, Ciara, Val, and now Tamsin.

As for Bo's statements to Kenzi in this episode... although I really really hate what she said, I'm going to play advocate and suppose that Bo framed it in the manner that she did because it's easier for her to blame it on Dyson than it is to accept partial responsibility for him going to the Norn or for her inaction in getting it back. Bo's good at a lot of things. Throwing knives, helping strangers, and delusion. Her delusions usually pick the path of least resistence until real life smacks her in the face. Example, her shiny happy vision of Lauren and assumptions that they were back together was much easier for her to believe than they were still broken up and that Lauren could possibly reject her. Which is understandable. No one likes being rejected. And for Bo it's such a rarity I can see why she has such a hard time with it.
156. TheUberFan
Bo is an expert at self delusion. I won't bother wasting people's time with examples but there are many. And we know for a fact that she handles rejection poorly because, until Dyson banged the red headed waitress at the Dal, she had never experienced it before in her life.

So self delusion/fantasy is her cup of tea, especially when it comes to relationships and feelings she either doesn't know how or doesn't want to deal with.

And yes...I wouldn't mind a Bobby Ewing shower scene right about now.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
157. Kiersten
@NYPinTA - yeah but in Vexed he's resisting Bo not because he doesnt want to be with her but because he now knows he has real, strong feelings for her. He's trying not to take the healing crumbs she's offering as he now wants more but can't help himself because of what he feels for her. She doesnt succusuck him into it she just seduces him old-fashioned way. There's this moment right before he gives in where he mutters shit - its so quiet, it doesnt even make the closed captions - because he knows he's sunk in more ways than one. That conflict, that relationship, doesnt exist in his interactions with PerfectCiara or Val or Tamsin. With PerfectCiara he was trying to be noble and not take advantage of her vulnerable state post kidnapping and widowhood. With Val, he was trying not to be a complete asshole by banging his best friend's sister but gave in b/c he was so miserable he was desperate to feel anything at almost any cost. It's after that low point that he finally takes off to attempt to get his head straight where he won't hurt the people he cares about doing it. And with Tamsin, he's just all out miserable and doesnt want to make shit decisions in that misery and hurt his partner in the process. Tamsin is just looking to give him comfort because she cares about him, she's been backing him up with Bo in one way or another all episode, and she urges him on to take the solace she's offering and just not think for a little bit. I'm also betting that this new Tamsin is still trying to figure out how to help people she cares about in these situations as she has such little experience with it and probably just defaulted to a little recreational solace sex because it was the easiest, most direct action she could come up with.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
158. Kiersten
@UberFaenatic - oh if we could have a Bobby Ewing shower scene that resets the show to right before Aoife rapes Dyson in S1E12 with a totally different conclusion that does not include The Norn (Freaking Norn!) and handily erases all of S2 & S3, I would be ecstatic. I would miss the S2 body swap big time, but that's pretty much it.
159. nypinta
Oh and a small rant, WTF with Bo saying that she hurt Dyson with Lauren?!??? Dyson was pretty clear that he was supportive of that relationship and would wait and at no point ever said anything else nor did he ever make a move except to say we will have out own time.
Oh yeah. I thought that too. I had no idea where she got that idea from.
Marie Sullivan
160. minime2
I am also a bit lost, Bo friendzoned Dyson and said that she needed to have a talk with Lauren, to perhaps friendzone her as well. But, I am pretty sure Lauren has made it clear that they are not in a relationship and are no longer lovers so why bother? Is this just to stroke the flames of the triangle? Or er square? No maybe a pentagon?
161. nypinta
Second time he was with Ciara he wasn't being noble. Just saying. And although the example between Dyson and Val had zero to do with them being in a relationship, I was just pointing out that Dyson never initiates.
162. TheUberFan
I agree @Kiersten that Tamsin wanted to give Dyson comfort, but I think she was seeking it too after listening to Bo go on and on about her feelings for her boy toy. There's only so much a valkyrie can take, you know?

So I think they're both lonely and sad and finding whatever comfort they can in each other because they're safe with each other, each invested emotionally in someone who is irrationally involved with train boy.
163. TheUberFan
At this point @minime2, I'm thinking apeirogon would be the most appropriate term. ;)
Kiersten Hallie Krum
164. Kiersten
Now this season we are all waiting for someone to pop out and say BOO surprise this is all a fake altered reality, created by Reiner, and nothing that happened this season is real.

Not "all season" just "last episode" because what Bo is doing and saying in the last episode contradicts almost everything she's done and said all season, including the recovered memeories she's had up till meeting Rainer again. I for one never doubted they were out of the temple. The supposition that they weren't was almost entirely generated by doccubus fans who needed an acceptable reason why Bo would take DL's chi to save Dyson and were desperate to discount the raw emotions diplayed by Bo and Dyson for one another and it's fallout on doccubus' future.
WTF with Bo saying that she hurt Dyson with Lauren?!??? Dyson was pretty clear that he was supportive of that relationship and would wait and at no point ever said anything else nor did he ever make a move except to say we will have out own time.
Yup, he was very clear about that. The Bo/DL relationship fell all on its own merits or lack thereof and without having anything to do with Dyson or how he feels about Bo. I wouldn't say he was supportive about it - he told Bo flat out in Delinquents, and not for the first time, that he didn't like her being with DL - and it doesn't mean Bo didn't see that it hurt him (how could it not?) But yeah, overall, that was a hugely arrogant thing for her to say and only one of the many WTF LADY? moments of that whole scene.
God I hate how angry this show makes me and that I can't stop watching it!
Oh this. This a hundred thousand times. Why can't I just quit you... ;(
165. Bore-mudaTriangle
Bo and Lauren's relationship to me wasn't a very healthy one. They both lied to each other about things. Lauren about Karen, pretty sure she didn't tell her about Crystal, leaving the gang for Taft without a word (and for some reason, if Taft wouldn't of been evil, I think Lauren would've stayed), about Nadia in the beginning, etc. Bo about kissing Tamsin, about where she was going during the Dawning invite, and more too. They could never be fully honest with each other. Lauren said she wasn't happy, so if they do get back together, what will change?

After season 1, I feel her and Dyson just weren't even.. romantic anymore. I feel the sex scenes they did have were gross and more like strangers hooking up rather than two people who love each other having sex. Like it was raunchy.

I really hope that this thing with Rainer kills the traignle. Even if it is a spell, and the curse is broken, I hope it makes Bo look closely at her other relationships. But to be honest I feel the show will always make Dyson and Lauren out to be choices for Bo.

Oh, and I didn't say this before.. thanks for the welcomes!
Kiersten Hallie Krum
166. Kiersten
Second time he was with Ciara he wasn't being noble. Just saying.

Well no, but by then there were in a relationship together and there were very, very different reasons. But I get your point about initiating. Though he does with Bo from time to time.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
167. Kiersten
I agree @Kiersten that Tamsin wanted to give Dyson comfort, but I think she was seeking it too after listening to Bo go on and on about her feelings for her boy toy. There's only so much a valkyrie can take, you know?

Yes, if you go on the assumption that Tamsin is romantically in love with or interested in Bo, and I dont and never have thought that to be the case at all.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
168. Kiersten
To clarify, I think Tamsin's emotional ties to Bo are much deeper and more complex than romantic or sexual love and more about the need for family and a desire to be part of the Bo/Kenzi/Dyson Happy Sunshine Gang dynamic. And I think her emotional connection to Dyson has always been stronger and deeper than what she feels for Bo if only because she's spent more time with him overall and knows him better than any of the rest of them (except arguably Kenzi now) although again, its not sexual.

It is deeply important for this show to allow Bo a relationship (outside of Kenzi) that is not sexual. It's one of the things I most valued about Tamsin's arrival on the show, that she did not hook up with either Bo or Dyson in S3 as I feared she would. Having her jump Dyson now out of the blue without anything leading up to it outside of this episode is deeply disjointed and disappointing. I wish Lost Girl valued itself as more than that the way so many of its fans do.
169. sakibess
"Bo and Lauren's relationship to me wasn't a very healthy one. They both
lied to each other about things. Lauren about Karen, pretty sure she
didn't tell her about Crystal, leaving the gang for Taft without a word
(and for some reason, if Taft wouldn't of been evil, I think Lauren
would've stayed), about Nadia in the beginning, etc. Bo about kissing
Tamsin, about where she was going during the Dawning invite, and more
too. They could never be fully honest with each other. Lauren said she
wasn't happy, so if they do get back together, what will change?"
170. sakibess
Oh,but that lies is not an obstacle for real love.
They belong together.
They had too much love,let to stop all in end..
Lie is not reason.
I hope - Bo and DL stay together! Tehy love is/was (too) beautiful)
Suzanne Metaxas
171. SuzyM
Just wanted to say hi to all the new posters! It is so nice to see so many people joining in and giving their insights and feelings :) Sorry haven't said welcome before but I've been busy and popping in and out when I can :D
172. TheUberFan
Yeah I want that for her too, @Kiersten. But I don't think Tamsin has ever been set up to be that person. The show runners hinted pre S3 that they were bringing in a new character as a possible interest for Bo and then, I think, decided to change several of the directions from Season 3. And I'm sorry to say that I believe it largely because of a sector of fandom wanting its own way and the show acceeding to those wishes. I don't have to name names. ;)

I see Tamsin as someone who has been in love with Bo for a very, very long time. For 1000 years or so, she's held her up as the ideal, the perfect woman with qualities no one could actually possess. And I think she protected herself from real involvement by measuring each potential suitor against her perfect ideal so she was fine blowing off steam with a random kiss with Dyson at the boxing ring or with a hydra during lunch hour.

And then she sees that Bo is that perfect person, that impossible being that shouldn't be real and her entire world is uppended because she's on a path to betraying her and she can't deal with it.

Tamsin, even reborn and as a young valkyrie, thought first about Bo and how she wishes Bo would like her. Even when she rescues Bo from Massimo by going full valkyrie, her thoughts are about Bo hating her because she's dark and ends the thought with the bookend of her earlier conversation where she asks Dyson about love. Even as a child, her mind I think carried on the desire for Bo to care for her.

And then of course when she came back, she was much more emotive than in her past life as an adult...but she's not stupid. She knows Bo is stuck in triangle land and she doesn't feel worthy of Bo's affections anyway, given her lives and the big mistakes she's made. She doesn't count herself as one Bo has a connection with and she sits on the sidelines watching Bo wax on and on about Rainer and I think she's just tired of wanting someone who's unattainable (for now at least) and she needs to feel something other than loneliness. And Acacia helped put the idea of wolfie in her mind as a means to that end. Thanks Acacia! ;)

That scene where she's like a foot away from Bo, who's rambling about following her heart with Rainer...Tamsin's expression shows her disappointment more and more but she rallies and goes on.

She doesn't whine about her situation, she simply deals with it like she's always done...booze and meaningless comfort bangage.

That's my take anyway. ;)
Kiersten Hallie Krum
173. Kiersten
Hi @sakibess and welcome! Thanks for adding your voice to our discussion
174. nypinta
IIRC they thought they were going to have a longer season last year but they didn't get it and Tamsin's story was cut, so if they were going to have her be another love interest for Bo but that was the part they cut for time. What we get is, as Kiersten describes, a Tamsin that is more interested in joining the Happy Sunshine Gang than she is having a relationship with Bo. I also think that Valkyries are like shifters in that they are used to being part of a whole, part of a pack and she hasn't had that in a very long time outside of Acacia. She sees her chance at a new group but Bo's new fixation on Rainer threatens that.

I do think Bo is under something. Maybe not a spell, but in a reverse of the overall theme of the season being who someone is when certain memories are taken, she is now the result of what happens when you have memories inserted. I just wonder what it is that is going to happen that clues her or her friends into it.
175. nypinta
I meant they probably but it. Not that I know for certain.
177. TheGardner
Oh wow, the last time I checked in we were only up to 60 some odd comments, what a difference a day makes. Welcome to all the nubes, I haven't had a chance to read everyone's comments yet, but I am sure everyone is feeling their feelings about this full of feelings episode.

Poor Hale, very underused, but I have always liked him so I am sad to see him go. Now I never felt any kind of romantic connection between him and Kenzi, I am not even going to touch that seriously cheap marriage proposal, but I do see a deep friendship so that is how I looked at her grief. KS absolutely killed it in that scene and my heart broke for her. I liked the way she stood up for herself in this episode by calling out Bo and by standing firm against her mother. It will be interesting to what happens next episode because I can see her gravitating towards Tamsin and Dyson, while shunning Bo.

Bo, hmm... what can we say about Bo? Well she is very much on her own now, so I hope she is happy with Reiner because he's pretty much all she has left. Kenzi is done with her, Dyson is done with her, and Tamsin appears to have sided with them. She blew Trick off and her status with Lauren seems similar, although I do hope it is adressed next episode.

Speaking of Lauren, I am curious to see how she responds to Hale's death. When he was her master his treatment led her to break from the Light and follow Taft which inadvertantly ruined his career as Ash. The show has never dealt with it and probably won't, but I would still like to see it.

Holy crap Dyson almost had me like him again, that's two episodes in a row, wow I can't handle it. I actually used to like his character, but then wolves mate for life and his beyond crippling love for Bo. I agree with the dead voodoo priest, it has trapped him for far to long and left him a pathetic shell of his former self. I am glad he is finally facing the reality that Bo is no longer in love with him and he needs to move the fuck on. I never saw a great love, more of a crush or hero worship from Tamsin towards Bo, but I think she also made her break with Bo. Whatever the deal was between her and Dyson, i.e. comfort, grief, going for it, I say have at it.

I enjoyed this episode. There were some weird points; like I don't really get the purpose behind the revenant story, seemed like it just gave the cast something to do while Kenzi had her time with Hale. I loved Massimo as a villain, like finally for once a villain who is actually evil. Last season I thought LH was wasted, this season she was better used and had good chemistry with the cast. Bo and Dyson finally having that long overdue relationship talk. Tamsin being protective over him, I like them together, I don't know if I feel them romantically, but I would rather watch them then Denzi(ew incest!) Minus Trick's horrid "Vex. Vex! VEX!" I found their interaction interesting, and that another piece of the puzzle was being added. So all in all good stuff.

Having watched some of the earlier episodes recently has really helped give me some perspective on the season. Out of the 11 that have aired, I really only disliked 3 of them(4x03, 4x06, & 4x08), but they all still had some things in them that I could enjoy. I have only truly hated 4x02(taking the #1 spot from Midnight Lamp on my worst episodes list), so not to bad and based on the last few, I am really excited for the finale.
178. TheUberFan
I agree with you in large part, @nypinta. There is a longing for her to be a part of something as special as the gang.

But I do think there were enough suggestions, looks, moments, almost kisses and actual kisses that reasonably lead one to believe that she feels more than just friendship and camraderie.

I don't think it's off the table, just maybe set aside for the time being; primarily because it's a door that hasn't been fully opened yet and thus the potential is unrealized.

But if anything major happens, it would be next season because Bo is still not in a place to even consider it and Tamsin seems to be ready to try to move on past an unattainable goal. For now at least.
179. Darthfaeder
@Nypinta and Uber yes Bo is an expect at self delusion and might a say a bit of a narcissis too. I think and agree that Bo may be the victim of having memories planted in her head about Rainer. The question is was it Rainer who put them there or the Wanderer, and is Rainer the Wanderer? Perhaps the Wanderer is able to change his appearance to look like Rainer and insert memories into people? If he is as desperate to get Bo to be his mate which is sooooo freaking Grosssssss I can't even go there and can't believe LG did, then is it such a stretch to believe that Rainer is the Wanderer in disguise?
@Kiersten yes totally agree with everything you have said except that part about Tamin not having romantic feelings about Bo. Everything about her at the moment screams of someone who is in love with someone that is in love with someone else. She is acting like a defeated
women who just can't handle her feelings anymore. If all she feels is admiration for Bo, then Bo's so called love for Rainer wouldn't bother her but it does and it's written all over her demeanor. I'd be shocked if Tamsin was not in love with Bo.
180. islandgrl
I honestly think this was one of the most beautiful Dyson episodes to date, and redeemed the season, and the series, a lot in my eyes. I know many people here love Dyson, however of all the characters, he has grown the least throughout the past four seasons. He has been trapped by his love for Bo (as the peacock lady said this episode - his love for Bo has become his prison), and in order to grow as a character, needed to find more empowerment in himself.

4x02 was awful for me to watch. I felt KHR overacted with his desperation to find Bo, and his heartfelt speech to Eddy made no sense in context. The entire episode was eyeroll worthy. But this past episode made me sit and think about Dyson as a character. Throughout the series, the man has had a need to be a part of Bo's life. I'm not saying that is wrong, but he put that need before his own health many times (some here may find it romantic, others may find it unhealthy. It's a matter of perspective, and I personally feel that especially this season, Dyson was disempowered by his love for Bo, which mirrored Lauren's story last season quite closely). Dyson was mocked about this need during the Dawning, and this need has been demonstrated many a time.

The past four episodes or so, Dyson has been having to deal with Bo slowly acting more and more like an ass - first with the triangle baloney, and then with Rainer. The key with Rainer is that Bo locked him out of his life completely, and found that ok. For Dyson, someone who has always needed to be in her life, and who had Bo as his emotional center, that must have been heart wrenching. It would be the equivalent of taking away opium for an addict (I hate to make the comparison, but drugs/alcohol addiction is the only one that I can think of - an actual physical an emotional need to consume drugs makes it essential in someone's life, and when they are suddenly removed, the results are painful in every way imaginable).

Looking back at 4x02, you can make so many comparisons. In 4x02, Dyson needed to be there for Bo, he needed to be a part of her life. In 4x11, he was locked out of her life, and he, for the first time, said he didn't know if he could bail her out (a healthy action, btw). In 4x02, Dyson waxed poetically about how he loved Bo because she was selfless. By 4x11, it is established that Bo is one of the most selfish characters in the show. The differences are stark, and intended. This has been the season of Dyson being broken down - you could see it in 4x06 when he let himself be borderline abused by Bo, you could see it in the 'triangle trilogy' of 4x07-4x09, where he let himself be led on by her. In 4x11 he finally took a stand - he finally decided to try to live the life he chose, a lesson that he learned from Bo.

It's a wonderful story of empowerment for a character that needed go go through a personal journey. I know many folks here did not like 4x11 because of the Tamsin makeout scene and the conversation between Bo and Dyson, but taking Bo out of the equation completely, to me, Dyson has never been more interesting.

4x11 made it clear that early episodes in the season that had seemingly innocuous plot lines are becoming more and more important. The writers are telling a story, they had a major callback to 4x01 already (Bo CHOSE to stay on the train, knowing that Dyson, Kenzi, and the rest had no memory of her, and Kenzi had no protection), and they just called back to 4x02. I honestly think this season, as frustrating as it is to watch in season, has the best story, and the highest rewatch value, of them all.
Maria Payne
181. Georgiana2494
@islandgrl -I really like your take on this episode and reminds me that KHR said in an interview that Dyson was somewhat "neutered" part of this season.
182. TheUberFan
The thing is though, @islandgrl, the factoid about Bo choosing to stay on the train came from Waves and I think anything in those memories are suspect.

I challenge anyone to watch Bo's "memory" scenes in Waves and then watch her memories from Of All the Gin Joints.

Also, go back to Sleeping Beauty School and see how she is after she woke up, as well as how the maid behaves and everything else about that creepy place.

PS...why would breaking a memory spell so that Bo's loved ones remembered her would make Bo forget her time on the train? one has answered where Tamsin was for the entire month plus Bo was inaccessible or why she showed up when Bo became aware again.
183. TheUberFan
I too am pleased that Dyson may not be bound to Bo like he thought. It makes Bo take him for granted.

She sure did in this episode, where she assumed he showed up to help her and he had to cover by saying Tamsin called and of course she backed him up.

If Bo chooses Dyson and Dyson chooses Bo, I want it to be just that. A choice. Not something forced upon either of them.

And if Bo moves on, I don't want him lonely and pining for someone he can't ever have because he deserves better than to be taken for granted and ignored.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
184. Kiersten
I do think it's healthy, by the way, that Dyson told Bo she is on her own when Rainer turns on her (though we all know it unlikely he'll follow through). She needs to suffer the consequences of her own actions on this one especially after how she's treated everybody over her infatuation with a stranger. And not having Bo as his center for a while will probably do Dyson some good in many ways and bring home to Bo just what a bitch she's being to him in these last few episodes, but denying or trying to alter his core nature about how he's always going to love her is just bullshit.

Also, for the last time, Bo did not abuse Dyson in 4.06. GMAFB on that one.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
185. Kiersten
Actually @islandgrl, over the last four seasons, it's Dyson who has grown the most. He went from thinking humans less than himself to loving one more than himself. He's learned what it is to lose the very heart of himself, then to lose PerfectCiara, then to reclaim the heart of himself only to realize he's now a very different person. The Dyson of S1 wouldnt have been so ready to give Bo her space in S3, would have arguably charged in and claimed his "mate" but having gone through S2, having grown so much, he stepped back and let Bo figure out for herself how toxic her relationship with Doctor Lauren really is (a fact she's still deluding herself over while DL has long since come to terms with it).

People cannot like the one love thing, they can be glad that EA appears to be retconning it so that Bo will be free to love whatever other ship such fans want her free for, but no one can say that Dyson is the character with the least growth because of it. It is because of his mated love for Bo, it's loss and it's return without the woman he loves coming back with it that has given him the most devloped character growth arc out of them all in this hot, inconsistent mess.

Dyson isnt going anywhere from Bo, not for long, not even with the bullshit retcon of his fundamental character. Count on it.

I wrote in one of the later recaps of S3 that much as I loathe that season as a whole, when viewed in context of a Doctor Lauren character arc, it becomes a lot more interesting (though still overall awful). The only character who has not grown, who has in fact back slid into a mere shade of the "hero" she once was, is Bo, which these last 2 episode have brutally brought to life.

I agree though that this season, for all the crazy that has erupted in the last two episode, has been more compelling than anything LG has had since the end of season one. But it's still season one that remains the all time best season Lost Girl and I'll forever miss that great show that once was.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
186. Kiersten
Sorry, computer glitch. My last 2 comments are in the wrong order.
187. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic I was thinking this about Tamsin's whereabouts too. She could not have been there. Dyson went there everyday searching and there was no sign. Until Bo woke up (remembered). It did look like maybe the black smoke took her as the truck went over the cliff, but then how would she have returned to the spot from wherever she was taken? Unless Valkyries bodies disappear after they die and aren't reborn for a whole month after their death.. lol. I wonder if she even knows what happened? No one on the show has ever mentioned how she just popped out of nowhere.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
188. Kiersten
EA has said that Tamsin has a *major* role to play in the final episodes with big time impact, so thinking we might get some of those answers then or not at all as all important things have to happen off screen
189. TheUberFan
So much has happened offscreen. I would have liked to have seen Dyson train Kenzi as a shadow thief. I would have liked to have seen Tamsin go from sweet, innocent child to adult Valkyrie with her memories mostly back. I would have liked to have seen more of Hale and Kenzi's relationship this what if Hale had participated in Waves with the others? That would have been sweet to see them interact on a mission again.

@Bore-mudaTriangle...the show made such a point of Dyson setting his alarm to go to the crash site every day that it has to have been intentional to prove she wasn't there while Bo was forgotten and they were under the memory spell to forget she existed.
190. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic I agree. I hope these next 2 episodes explain it, because like Kiersten said, she has a major role. Yet I wouldn't be surprised if the writers didn't touch on it at all.

P.S. I'm excited to see her wings again! Epic showdown? Yes please.
191. TheUberFan
Oh yeah I'm way excited about the wings. :)

I was wondering about the consequence for her trading Rainer's soul for a reboot on her life cycles...that she might not be able to claim souls take the einherjar to Valhalla.

I imagine it will come up in one form or another.

What if she tries to escort Hale but cannot?
192. nypinta
I think all of the characters have had a lot of growth while at the same time being consistent with their basic nature. Trick still holds things close to his chest, but he finally has regret. When he went to Bo's he looked like a man holding his hat in his hands hoping for forgiveness as he begged her not to do exactly what she did. Whoops. But he finally seemed ashamed of his choices. (But he's grown the least, since the show started, in my opinion.)

Dyson has always been a protector and a man putting duty before desire. But he's done a complete 180 on humans and he's even grown with regards to his feelings about following the fae laws as if it's the laws that keep the peace and not individual fae making decisions for themselves. He was tasked by his king (Trick) to keep an eye on Bo but even that is a choice for him. I did think the 'one love' was an albatross but not on Dyson's growth, just on the over all story because with it if Bo was with anyone else, his position in her life would always be the same. I'd rather he have the choice than be put there due to a condition.

Kenzi has had an interesting journey but her character has always been one to bolster the rest. But her near supernatural optimism has been tempered by loss and now it will be by tragedy. She's made the most attempt at change but always gets shoved back into a postion of side kick. How she reacts to that I'm very interested to see. I think she'll come out of this stronger and might make some choices that won't make Bo happy but will be for Kenzi's peace of mind. Something Kenzi never seems to do, and part of the reason I think she was hesitating to say yes to Hale was her thinking of Bo and how it would effect her. And then it became too late and she realized in that moment that she shouldn't have waited or hesitated on behalf of someone else. It's a horrible lesson to learn like that.

Lauren has definitely grown from the Doctor that feared helping Bo having reprecussions from the Light to a woman that willingly works for he Dark but says right to the Morrigan's face that she doesn't trust her. Sadly some of that growth was the writers shoehorning in a war doctor backstory, which was so unneccessary since they could have allowed her time with Bo to be what gave her strength. Isn't Bo supposed to be someone that makes the people around her better by example? Then let her make people better! FFS.

Even Vex has grown from giggling madman assasin to a pain in the ass member of Bo's dysfunctional family. But he still looks out for himself first.

To be able to have each character change, yet maintain their basic nature is one thing the show has done well.

I wonder how Kenzi would react if Tamsin showed up to take Hale's soul. :(
Carmen Pinzon
193. bungluna
Great discussion, you guys!

For myself, the only thing that would save this show is if the writers somehow manage to explain at least the most pressing of the dangling plots before season's end. (Have I mentioned how much I hate cliff hangesr? I really, really hate them!)

However, with the propencity of EA for leaving conversations off scene 'cause, you know, they drag down the story, I hold no great hope. Sigh. Another good sci-fi idea derailed by inept showrunners.
194. lonewolf
I'm gone just 6 hrs. and I have a what seems like a bookof comments to read. This almost like homework. And I just spent almost an hour writing up a comment and I don't know what I did but I managed to erase it all. So I'll just condense it. The latter half of S3 Tamsin definitely was developing feelings for Bo. Not romantic but still strong, because, I think of her regretting her betrayal of her. That's why she didn't tell the Morrigan about bringing that guy out of his coma and indentifying Bo as the one who assaulted him. when she was leaving the Dal at the end of S3Ep1. And did anybody notice the look on her face when she did, that was not a friendly look. It reminded me of that look she had at the end of S2 when she looked at herself in the mirror. She had those sparks in her eyes and then this look of deviousness.
@ Kiersten, for me the start of Bo's change for the worst came when she sucked all the chi from the Lich's vessels. She talks in that body glowing demonic voice about she would rule all the Fae. Soon she will be strong enough I think she said. Then with a growl she breaks the collar. At the end of S2 when she defeats the Garuda she again goes into that glowing, demonic possession and then she says she is more powerful than all other Fae. I don't think Kenzi broke that spell quickly enough to fully release her from it. That's why when she looked into the mirror those sparks came across her eyes and she had that devious smile. The dark side was just starting to reveal itself. Not enough to change her fully but I think it was the beggining of it all. As for her selfishness, I think that started right off during S1Ep2 when Willy boy told her about her mother. It wasn't there all the time but it was building. Then we have the Ceremony. She sucks chi out of Kenzi, Lauren, Trick and Stella to bring Dyson back. Then she brings Dyson back and again in that body glowing, demonic voice she talks about her being his daughter. And then after she brings Dyson back she says "only I choose who lives" sounds like daddy talking there. The reason I say that is because of what Aife says when she being held at Taft's lab about her father killing them all then bringing them back to life and killing them again. I'll have to read more to comment more.
I pretty much agree with most of what has been said. I have my own theories but I'll have finish my homework and read the rest.
@ Kiersten, It would be nasty if Bo did eat the seed and go dark. But then if she and Rainer manage to dissolve the Light Fae and the Dark Fae would they rule/lead the united Fae with benevolence or malevolence. I would lead towards the latter. I say this because everytime she was possessed she said would rule the masses and all would bow before her. So yes Kiersten, I think she could go Dark. To rule in an oppressive manner. Whether she does eat the seed who knows. She does know about it now and what the consequences of her killing the Una Mens would be. And even tho Bo knew about the shoe she gave the Una Mens to free Dyson and Kenzi it doesn't seem like Rainer and Bo took it. Maybe that's why Rainer left. Battlefield my ass. He may even be the one that Vex left Tricks in a hurry. He may just have it and Rainer knew it and demanded it. That's why he came out with that Alice in Wonderland line. So the shoe, is this another off screen cheat. Regarding the seed and that hand, whoever that hand belonged to I don't think they managed to grab it. That hand was from someone in distress. They probably died before thay could.
And lastly before I finish my "homework" I read up on Odin and guess what he's is a shifter able to take any human form. And something else, he had two ravens that would scout the world and report to him what they found out on their travels. And their names were Huggin and what was the other ones name, I just forgot. But that's what happens when you have a dead spot on the brain that affects short term memory. I callit my black hole. But they served Odin. So WTF! Is Odin her daddy, did he take Rainers form to find her. Huggin and his brother had been sending brunettes to the train and they said she was of special interest to their boss/daddy. Two other points, when Bo was in Irkalla the Leviathan kept calling her Princess. And when she sent her back to the cemetary Huggin and his brother said something about what they would do after Rainer was tossed into the abyss of something. I couldn't make out the rest of it. Were they speaking literally or figuratively.
@ Kiersten, you mentioned Dyson having a non-romantic relationship, why not Angel? They need to find her to get the other shoe anyway.
Well time for me to shift and chase a few rabbits. I'llbe back after I eat.
Susan White
195. whiskeywhite
Like @lonewolf, I turn my back for a few hours and there are 50 more comments -- many of them quite lengthy!! Talk about addiction. (But am I back? Sure I am.)

Such a good discussion of character development. Not my forte so I just read and learn.

I'm not persuaded by the 'Tamsin is just consoling her friend Dyson with sex' argument. I think there's more than that. I'm more convinced by @UberFaenatic's argument that:
they're both lonely and sad and finding whatever comfort they can in each other because they're safe with each other, each invested emotionally in someone who is irrationally involved with train boy.
And I'm with @TheGardner: "Whatever the deal was between her and Dyson, i.e. comfort, grief, going for it, I say have at it." I do hope T & D don't write off their sexy times to him being drunk and we-shall-never-speak-of-this-again.

I agree with Kiersten that in general it would be better if they avoided sex between partners, but Dyson and Tamsin are far more than professional partners now. Have I commented before in this context about the Canadian scifi series, "Continuum"? The time traveller woman cop has quite intense and personal experiences with her cop partner, but there is never a hint of a sexual relationship between them (even though he's very handsome and emotionally attractive).

Now, what Tamsin's relationship is with Bo, I'm not sure. @TheGardner suggests "more of a crush or hero worship", which makes sense to me. Sorry, @UberFaenatic, I don't get your argument that Tamsin has "been in love with Bo for a very, very long time. For 1000 years or so." Are you saying they met before?
Susan White
196. whiskeywhite
@TheGardner, what was cheap about Hale's marriage proposal? You expected perhaps dancing elves?

Fascinating analysis, @islandgrl, about Dyson. I agree:
he put (his need for Bo) before his own health many times (some here may find it romantic, others may find it unhealthy. ... I personally feel that especially this season, Dyson was disempowered by his love for Bo.
I think it's a combo of romantic and unhealthy (in fact, a lot of stuff we think is 'romantic' in our culture is unhealthy, as I have droned on about before). But I'll definitely join the agreeing chorus that it was a healthy reaction when he said he won't bail Bo out.

Very interesting info. @Georgiana2494 that KHR said in an interview that Dyson was somewhat "neutered" part of this season. Let's hope he un-neuters himself. Maybe Tamsin will help him to stand up on his hind legs (to mix metaphors).

You're right @UberFaenatic, Bo does take Dyson for granted. But then you say, "she assumed he showed up to help her" in zombieland. Didn't he? He may have been happy for Tamsin's covering excuse, but why else would he be there?

Good observation, Kiersten, that
not having Bo as his center for a while will probably do Dyson some good in many ways and bring home to Bo just what a bitch she's being to him in these last few episodes.
It's reminiscent of episode 2.02 after he's lost his love (and, you're right, he definitely never gave it up) when Bo apologizes for being stubborn for a long time and not seeing how good they were together. Will she have this epiphany again?
Susan White
197. whiskeywhite
Assorted final points:

Let me also join the "I'm excited to see Tamsin's wings again" team. I loved those! I want a pair.

@bungluna - start knitting your snowballs long johns for their sojourn in hell, if you want to wish that there'll be no cliffhangers.

Good overview of the Bo's "glowing, demonic possession" episodes, @lonewolf. Sooner or later they're going to have to cough up an explanation for all that.

Welcome @Sakibess. How is it that lies don't stand in the way of true love?
Suzanne Metaxas
198. SuzyM
@wishkeywhite KHR made the statement about Dyson being neutered in and interview. Without his love Dyson was a very different wolf.
199. TheUberFan
Ah no, @whiskeywhite. I should have been clearer, I think. :)

I believe Tamsin has been in love with the idea of Bo as presented to her by the Wanderer and held that up as her ideal, perfect being. So it becomes unbelievably horrifying and devastating for her when she acts to betray her and she self destructs in the process because she just cannot handle it.

Now she's a new valkyrie, but she carried on her feelings and is a little more expressive this time, although only just. In the last life (and who knows how many previous ones) she was self sufficient, bearing her own burden. Although it is notable that she began to trust Dyson to the point that she wanted to warn him about the danger that was coming per her employer. So she did start to make inroads into the team even as her old self.

But this Tamsin... I think her heart is heavy and right now at least, she's at the end of her tether, tired of hearing Bo go on about Rainer and tired of being lonely.

I don't blame her right now.

But if they try to make that random kiss 20 episodes "proof" she's been holding a torch for him and has secretly been in love with him all this time, I'll flip my lid. ;)
200. TheGardner
@whiskeywhite - Dancing elves, string quartette, 12 piece jazz band, you know whatever works. :-) No what I meant was that it was a cheap ploy to have Hale propose right before he dies. Something to up the stakes to make his death have more meaning, totally unnecessary. KS performance was more than enough and at this stage in their relationship it would have made more sense, to me anyways, if they talked about taking the next step like moving in together instead of jumping straight to marriage.

@Kiersten - I completely dispute that Dsyon has had the most growth over the last 4 seasons. Dyson, no really Dyson? The only story he has had revolves around his love for Bo. Even after loosing then regaining his love, he didn't gain any perspective from it, he went right back to pining for her. I would say he has grown over the course of this season, evolving from Bo's bitch into his own man again. I really hope this episode marked a new chapter for him and that when he told Bo she was on her own he meant it. Bo needs to realize that people are not disposable. You can't simply pick them up when the need suits you, discard them when you are done, and then expect them to still be there. Bo's behavior in 4x06 may not have been abusive, but she was definitely using him. Dyson was so desperate to be included in her life that he allowed it, pretty pathetic on his part. Bo had full knowledge of his feelings towards her and didn't care because she needed a distraction. It was awful to watch and needed to end.
C. H.
201. SmurfFae
I no longer think Bo was brainwashed by Rainer. We were obviously supposed to think this, as her change in attitude towards R was pretty sudden in 4x09.
But as 4x10 showed: She spent 3 days alone on a train with a hunk. That's more than enough time for a bored succubus to fall in love with anyone. Especially a poor, tortured, cursed hunk who wants to end the separation of Light & Dark. (Remember: At that time she was also single.)

At the end of 4.10 we see Rainer give Bo The Mark (which will probably soon be revealed to be nothing sinister but something valuable - hence Levi's desire to own it) and then the flashback ends.
The scene in 4x06, where she looks at The Mark in the mirror is chronologically probably right after she receives The Mark but before the compass is used.

I had an issue with how harmonic Dyson and DL appeared in 4x09. I thought it was too fast how the triangle felt suddenly at ease which each other. Only to have the triangle completely obliterated with the appearance of Rainer. Hilarious.
All the people who wanted the triangle gone must be very happy. (Or more likely: complaining about something else. Not defending the show, just saying.)

What's the deal with the butterfly? It was mentioned by Bo's (human) mom in 'There's Bo place like Home'.
(Butterflies are a symbol for metamorphosis, BTW)

Bo's dad/Tamsins Boss has now been hinted at beeing the Pyrippus ('Not him' in 'Ceremony'). So he might make an appearance in 4x13 'Dark horse'. He probably wanted Bo & Rainer to take down the Una Mens.
202. nypinta
I suspect that the thing with the butterfly was nothing more than the writers remembering Bo's story and deciding to insert it here as something neat and referential but now everyone is focusing on it because we want to know why it was there and how Rainer could know about it. The writers drive us nuts but sometimes I wonder if we drive them nuts too. Same with the necklace. It was just supposed to be something that triggers Bo’s emotions for Lauren but forgotten as soon as Lauren gave her the brush off again, but I want to know why Bo never brought it up with her and what she did with it.

I can’t tell any more if Bo is brainwashed or not. Both arguments are valid, that she has been manipulated using false memories or that she hasn’t but Rainer and his situation is just her cup of tea. Because when she first got on the train she was single, as has been pointed out. Lauren left and she wasn’t with Dyson again at all. Things pretty much sucked for her so she allowed herself some time by languishing on the train and doing what she always does, which is help someone else. And the hand memory can be explained away. But it’s the memory with the crown that sticks out. Why would she be offered a crown and be so angry by it? I don’t think Rainer, the one we saw in her memories most recently, would offer her something like that. Yet it was next to him on the floor when she found him again. So what does that mean?

I’m OK with the triangle being over, if I actually thought that Rainer was sticking around and she wouldn’t go back to ping ponging between Dyson and Lauren again. I’m not OK with them reinstating the love triangle despite what actually happened on screen. But we’ll see what happens. Maybe Rainer will stay and the triangle is gone for good.
203. lonewolf
I got back on here yesterday to find myself overwhelmed. There were waayyy to many comments on here for me to insert one of my own. So what I am going to do today is read every single one of them. Then, if I find something to make a reasonable reply I will. But most of what I would have said has been already. But just a couple right now, no in depth analysis of anything. @Kiersten, @ UberFeanatic and @ nypinta, agree with most of what the three of you have to say. There are minor differences but essentially the same opinions. But I do have one opinion about Dyson's and Bo's *supposed love*(like the asterisk thing Kiersten). There was no real love on Bo's part ever. It was just a sexual infatuation. She never knew love before did she? How would she know what it was really like then. Dyson may have loved her, but for Bo it was just some Faetastic sex the kind of which she had never known before. When they were at the Dal in one episode she suggested sex just for fun. Then Dyson suggested they make some rules about the *fun time* together. Trick can't know he says. Then at the Dal as Dyson is walking away she shouts over to him, right in front of Trick how rules were made to be broken. She didn't really care about rules ever. Dyson may have been in love with her, but she never really was with him, he was just her tool. @ The Gardner, I agree with @ Kiersten about Dyson having the most growth over the 4 seasons but with one exception, and that is Kenzi. She started off as a little street wise thief, but as time went by her relationship with Bo helped her mature. And if it wasn't for that little goth girl we wouldn't have a show. She got the ball rolling when she started the detective agency. Which also, right at the second episode of S1, got Bo started on her search for her real parents.
@UberFaenatic, I see the inserting of false memories as the same as being put under a spell. Either way, her memories were altered and then cemented into her mind when he put his hand on her shoulder. If you notice when he slid his hand from her cheek to her shoulder he pushed lightly on her, then the glow intensified. He had definitely imposed those memories over the real ones.
@nypinta, Kenzi will come out this tragedy with Hale stronger, and it may upset Bo ( that's what she needs) but her strength will be come from a need for vengance. It may eventually mellow out but for now...
And before I head out to visit my friend, I have to say this.
@ SmurFae,the handmaiden told Bo that there were three days between stops. Rainer said how she had missed her stop and the one before that, etc. So with a quick count and a guess she was gone for at least fifteen days. And the butterfly, it was mentioned by Bo's human mother, but how did a replica of it happen to be on the train. That tells me that someone was watching her as a child. How else would it be on the train. Lastly, only the Fae community, didn't know about her. But someone knew about her since she was a child growing up with her human family. This blog is going to get me in trouble. I'm late, I'm late, I have to get my butt in gear and git. See everybody later.
C. H.
204. SmurfFae
One idea I had (but I don't think it's true):

It's possible, Bo arrived on the train multiple times. It didn't went so well for Rainer the first time, so he kicked her out (she forgot everything) and the crows brought her back again.
Since Bo forgot everything, he could have changed his behaviour slightly to optimize his seduction of Bo. (Similar to Hale in the time loop with Kenzie).

The weird memories could be from her 'first run'.

But I don't think it went down like this. 'Cause Rainer's a swell hero, just like Bo, who wouldn't do something as manipulative. (He's not evil, just defiant. Like Kenzie, according to her mother.)
205. newgirl
About this season, i think one thing is sure, is about memories and consequences, since the very beginning, we have Bo and Dyson reluctants to intervine for once in some car atrack which result into DL been taken, we have Kenz in search of fae power wich leads to Hale's dead (sad but true, it has become "the means to this end", even when i don't want to put any presure on Kenz, she is one of my favourite characters in the series, she kind of gave Massimo the means to this end), we have Blood King curse wich bring us to.... well to Reiner and all the Wanderer stuff, we have DL ecoterrorists acts which made her so fickle into taking orders, tamsim taking the deal from the blood king becoming the beacon signal for the wanderer to pick up bo, dyson well i think i don't have one for dyson, at least i doesn't remember anything to tie him up, well maybe his encounter with the Hellskor, though nothing so far about that, i hope next chapter there is something about it.
As for Rainer identity we have this, rainer ain't the one paying to get Bo, at least this Rainer, but he is the same Rainer who Trick knew... so who is after bo?? Unless Rainer is a shifter too??? Tamsim never new this Rainer, maybe valquiries have some sort of beeper-thing sense that tells them there's a pick up and they don't see at all if a soul is worthy of Valhalla they only pick up and deliver anyone who dies in battle (from the mythological point of view this is absolutely wrong, but as many series, they take their liberties with their adaptation of mythological being), and that's why tam doesn't know the face of Rainer the Defiant, because when she went to pick him up he was covered by his helmet, but trick did, and he cursed him to be "The One Who Wanders", so we have the Wanderer... tamsin got a card of the wanderer when she found Bo, but she never knew this Rainer, what if Rainer is in deed the wanderer, i don't believe he was a bad guy back in the days when Trick was the all mighty Blood King, and certanly not when Trick was the Blood King capable to shove someone off history just to stand unchallenged, we also have the two memories of tamsin, which i d0n't know which one came to happen first, one is when she is offered payment for bo and the other when she is taking rainer, i think it would be important, all i can say about those memories is that to me her mail armor seems pretty much the very same, and she was completly disheveled when she mentioned to the blood king she had made so many mistakes in her life, i think been the proud and greedy valkyrie tam mentioned in ch8 may have meant those mistakes, so i think maybe she took the job before Rainer the Defiant ever came up, but then again why the wanderer card.
By now i don't even know if bo's father is the one looking for her, if he is so mighty as aife said why would he need someone to find her for him, besides the request was asked long before Bo was born, but we have what tamsin said something like "that thing would even create you in order to find you" (i don't remember the exact words but thas the idea), but during the Ceremony in S3 the man we see (if what was shown was true, i think it was) i believe is a loving and caring one, at least towards his child, though there was a phrase something like "I waited so long to have you here", wich at the time i took for a phrase a father would say to his newborn child, but it may have some other meanings by now because also said something like "you have a lot ahead of you" (i've been helping my memories with some recaps since Rainers apparition), so the writers are working hard i think, at least they are weaving fine threads with the back story.
I think Bo is somehow destined to the wanderer (this Rainer now present) but her father is the "big boss" pulling thread behind the train dimension, the one in the card doesn't seem to me like Rainer at all, and when she is taken, the card has her beside him, with her back to the world, maybe writers come with she some idea of her been a predestined warrior to free the fae from the Light/Dark cliché... along side with Rainer the Defiant or to bring her father from that other dimension so he can rule, i don't know i think by now i'm kinda rambling... sorry the mess
206. newgirl
@ lonewolf,
That tells me that someone was watching her as a child.
i think something like that, someone if not her father himself, must have been watching her, as a guardian style... her father said to someone not seen in the memory shown in Ceremony, "if she needs anything you let me know, doesn't matter when or what", even when aife took her from the cradle, maybe that shadow/spy went with her...
Suzanne Metaxas
207. SuzyM
@lonewolf Bo was very much in love with Dyson. The whole idea behind her telling him that they would just be bang buddies was to make him see he loved her. She didn't know that the reason he was trying to make her think he didn't care was because his King had commanded him to break up with her. Dyson's problem began when he thought he could play that game with her. Bo's whole plan was to make him love her right from the beginning. In Dis Members during his love confession she tell him "Dyson you are an idiot, you have been mine for a very long time." She knew from time he saved her from Vex and told her he cared that he loved her. Bo in S2 episode 2 tells Kenzi she is in love with Dyson and regrets not realizing it sooner.
208. nypinta
@lonewolf I too sometimes question what Bo's feelings where towards either Dyson or Lauren. When you think about how she got together with either of them, neither started out all that healthy. Dyson was the first person she was with that she didn't kill by sleeping with them. That alone made him near unresistable to her. But it was clear to Kenzi that it was more than just a hook up from the first time they were together. I do think Bo had feelings for him though, beyond that. But it's a bit like in the Sookie Stackhouse books (if anyone has read them) where Sookie spends her entire life hearing what everyone thinks and pushes people away because of that until she meets Bill and she can't hear what he's thinking and it's just because of the novelty of that she gets together with him. Her ability to relax and not have to shield him out isn't enough for an entire relationship though. Whether or not Dyson and Bo would have come to a similar conclusion we don't know because of the freakin' Norn.
And when Bo and Lauren got together it was right after Bo killed Nadia and they all had to go up against the Garuda, so it felt like a rebound to me. One that was built on infatuation and delusion and a desire for normalcy when for Bo that isn't possible. But I do think she loved Lauren too. It just wasn't enough.
And now with Rainer she's built the entire relationship on the fact that she helped him escape. That sounds more like an obligation than a reason to be with someone. But pretty sure this one is doomed too.
Her only relationship on the show that wasn't due to some outside force or spurred on by guilt or delusion was her brief fling with Ryan. They just liked each other.
209. CamW
The only thing I am going to say is......Massimo is a dead man!!

Although Kenzi is human is a big part of everyones heart: Dyson, Bo, Lauren, Tamsin, hell even Vex! They all care about her, and to see her in such pain! They will all be out for his blood, and rightly so! The only deabte is: How should he go?

Personally I think he should be flayed.....very very slowly!
210. newgirl
@CamW sadly we won't have him going down slowly enough, but he is WAY dead, that's out of the question, you forgot Trick and Bruce in the list, XD
C. H.
211. SmurfFae
My predictions for Massimons comeuppance:
Before they could kill him they would have to take the twig back and it's (by plot logic) a too powerful object to leave in the hands of Bo/Kenzie.
So I guess they'll do something like a) push him back into the lava pit but this time put a lid on top or b) bury him alive or something like that...
212. newgirl
you can always strip him from any cloth and lets see were the twig went!!! and then kill him XD, no seriously... it may not be easy but the twig have to change masters or be destroy... , is an object way too powerful, massimo have done his last act pissing off the, completely, wrong people... though i don't believe it would be an excruciating death... maybe he would jump into the lava again this time unaware of the twig loose, but anyway i hope he is death... someone mention xena up here... maybe kenz threw herself with him in order to kill him out of revenge and end up as gabrielle in sacrifice xena season 3, XD so that bo have to get her with the Hellskor from death
213. nypinta
@newgirl That is a likely scenario. Kenzi goes after Massimo and attempts to take the twig back using her new found shadow thief skills but no one knows what she's done until Bo goes to get her. Kenzi gets her revenge. Bo gets some redemption by saving Kenzi.
214. newgirl
@nypinta that would surely tie all loose knots... too easy way out, i don't think they (writers) are gonna take that exit door, they will make us suffer for sure.... bad, bad writers!!
215. lonewolf
First, @ nypinta, thanks for agreeing with me about the Bo loves Dyson bit. I know just about everyone on here will disagree with me but that is how I've seen it right from the start. As for that freakin' norn, I'm glad it was Kenzi that got Dyson's love back, I thought it to be much more fun to watch her show that norn that humans know the meaning of nuance. Besides, I thought it was so cool to see her zip thru that door and kick it in. That scared the bejesus out of that old bitty. If anyone was really going to get Dyson's love back it should have been Kenzi. There's another episode where Kenzi was the star of the show. Do not mess with that girl, especially when she has a chainsaw in her hands.
Now Rainer, and almost every time I spell his name I have to go back and fix it because it almost always comes out rainer, damn it! Probably just my subconcious doing it because I don't like the guy. As I had mentioned earlier, I read up on him because some have made mention of him, Odin that is. From what I read Odin is a shifter, able to take on any human form, and he has two ravens, and surprise they are named Huggin and Muggin(?) I forget his name. So here you have a God able to take any human form. Plus two ravens with very familiar names on the show. So just a theory, we never saw Rainer (again with the rainer thing)when Tamsin wanted to bring him to Valhalla, because of his helmet. But what if she went back to Valhalla and told Odin about what she had done. Odin is a shifter and maybe, remember I'm just tossing this out there, he sent the real Rainer to Vahalla and took his place. I don't think some cursed train would stop him from getting on it. So he takes Rainers place, sends his ravens out to find her. And somewhere along the line they lose track of her. Maybe after she sucked all the chi out of her human boyfriend Ryan and ran off. So Odin contracts Tamsin, who was a bounty hunter at that time, to find Bo. He describes her to Tamsin, eyes both brown and blue, neither light nor dark yet both. She takes the job thinking there is no such person. So she takes the job at the cop shop because she is still under obligation to find her. Then when there at the outlaw Dark Fae town, that card comes up, she sees it and *shit*she says. So something was up there. Then later, I'm not sure which episode it was, Acacia shows up and tells Tamsin *he knows you found her*by that time tho she has started to have feelings for not just Bo but the whole sunshine gang. And of course we all know about Tamsin falling into a pit of deep drunken depression because of her guilt from betraying Bo. And then we come to end of season three with all that doo doo with Taft which was essentially that, doo,doo. Bo gets scooped up by some black smoke and everybody, or pretty much everbody thinks it is her father. But then of course it was not. Now here we are almost to the end of season 4 and still, who the hell is her daddy!!
So, for me to be satisfied with how the season ends, three questions have to be answered. On a scale of one to ten.
A, Who the hell is daddy. (10)
B Whose hand was that reaching for the seed and where is it, who has it. (9.5)
C Did Tamsin and Dyson really buy a vineyard after they found where Angel's nieces dog buried and sold it?
(who gives a shit)
My apologies for that, we all get so serious about all of this that I had to do that. What's wrong with a little humor.
216. Mels
A mention of the type of horse used by Hades coming. A crown. Hades abducted Persephone on his chariot. She eats 6 seeds and becomes his queen. Power over life and death. A mother driven to madness by the loss of hr daughter. The lightning. Seeing a lot of similarities.
Susan White
217. whiskeywhite
Again, I just get a little sleep and there are more comments! Cool. Does anybody ever look at the list of people commenting on the H&H site? We dominate it, I mean, we kill it!

@UberFaenatic, I get your argument about Tamsin and Bo now. It was the 1000 years that threw me off.

@TheGardner-- I understand now about the cheap ploy marriage proposal. But that was of course fan service too. They knew people would be upset about Hale being killed off. So give it the full treatment -- marriage proposal and all. Sure, moving in together makes more sense, but not enough for the grand tragic exit. So, cheap maybe, but more satisfying to the fans (at least some of them, you're a tough audience). ;-)

Interestingly, the mere mention of Hale and Kenzi moving in together leads Bo to say to Kenzi in great alarm, "You're leaving me?!" Allowing Kenzi, with full justice, to give it to Bo right between the eyes: "It sucks when it happens to you, doesn't it?"

So, I really, really agree @TG that "Bo needs to realize that people are not disposable. You can't simply pick them up when the need suits you, discard them when you are done, and then expect them to still be there." And I agree that's how she's treating Dyson.
Susan White
218. whiskeywhite
Fascinating idea @SmurfFae:
Bo's dad/Tamsins Boss has now been hinted at beeing the Pyrippus ('Not him' in 'Ceremony'). ... He probably wanted Bo & Rainer to take down the Una Mens.
But I think that @Mels has the answer. OMG, what a great connection to Hades and Persephone! 6 seeds and all! That's got to be it. The 6 seeds can't be coincidental. The Pyrippus is just the symbol of who's coming -- Hades (sorry if someone has argued this before I didn't pick it up).

That sent me off to good old Wikipedia where I learned that the Etruscan version of the god Hades was often accompanied by a three-headed dog. Now if that isn't LG material, I don't know what is.

It is significant that Trick describes Rainer as "not evil, just defiant, like my granddaughter". So unless Trick is badly mistaken, Rainer can't be the big bad, at least not all by himself (which doesn't mean that he's good though).
Susan White
219. whiskeywhite
@lonewolf, I totally agree with you that Bo has loved Dyson all along, and I think she still does (I know, some might say this is self delusion). (And BTW I, too, completely loved Kenzi chainsawing through the Norn's door). So I can't see how Bo is not under a spell from Rainer. No problem seeing her getting her sexy on with a hottie and an apparently idealistic underdog, but the whole, "he's my destiny" ridiculousness has to be a spell.

I think you make an excellent observation @lonewolf:
I see the inserting of false memories as the same as being put under a spell. Either way, her memories were altered and then cemented into her mind when he put his hand on her shoulder. If you notice when he slid his hand from her cheek to her shoulder he pushed lightly on her, then the glow intensified. He had definitely imposed those memories over the real ones.
But perhaps this is a reference not to Rainer as her destined mate, but her grander, overarching destiny -- the answer to all of the "demonic possession" episodes (not that she understands this herself).

Story writing/plot experts, please help me here.
220. jdknight
The death of Hale may bring Kenzi and Bo closer together. Bo was very very upset and had difficulty in controlling herself
. She only managed for Kenzi's sake. Those two could never survive without each other -they are each others heart. After the debacle with Massimo Kenzi is going to be even more determined to be Fae. She has no reason to love humans and one has murdered her beloved Hale.
I still think this is part of the dawning the caretaker warned her the temple could be vengeful. No one has been acting in character. I think Bo is nearing the end of her test and will soon find out if she is to become underfae. Her father is probably Odin. Rainer will not be a good guy but the wanderer will appear. Rainer will have been manipulated by him as well. He will probably go back to the train. Dyson will go berserk when he finds out about Hale. I don't think Massimo is Evony's son. He is more likely to be Lauren's brother. I hope the DVD will be released reasonably soon. This series needs to be watched as a whole
221. Loser
am i the only one that thought season 3 was awesome af, especially cuz of Tamsin. i really loved her scenes with Bo. i really like her character.
and i thought something was gonna happen between Bo and Tamsin, but slow. which i like. no rushing like Lauren or Dyson. tho in the end.. nothing.. disappointed me a little. loved the bathtub scene, beautifully done. and after hearing her say the same line in season 4. nice. wow i got off topic lol. anywho. Kenzi's breakdown was sad, really they shouldve just called everyone over and get their chi, but ya know.. dramatic endings are the best i guess.
222. Bore-mudaTriangle
@Loser Nope! I loved season 3. To me Tamsin brought something different to the show. I love her "sense of humor" (sarcasm, snarky, etc). Which I am missing a lot this season. Yeah there are some of us that believed (some still do) that there may be something more to how Tamsin feels for Bo, but not sure about Bo. I think maybe that's why a lot of people like Bo and Tamsin, because they have not had sex or a full on heart-to-heart but some context suggests Tamsin feels for Bo more than friendship, like a slow build up instead of jumping in the sack right away.

Season 3 of Lost Girl came in the mail for me yesterday. :D I haven't even bought the first 2 seasons yet! But it was on sale.. so! :P
223. nypinta
@loser There was much about season three that was great. Bringing Tamsin on for one. She was exactly what the show needed. My issues with S3 are all because at the end of season two they hinted that we'd get to see Bo explore the Dark within her. They made posters of her with one side of her face in light and the other dark with "live" and "evil" underneath. The teaser for the season was all about whether or not Bo was giving into her darker tendencies. And I was really looking forward to Bo testing her limits. But then it all turned out to be a fake out and it was just Bo going through some fae puberty crap. Then the finale was just a giant mess. Like this season the over all story was good and they had some good ideas, but if they just tweaked a few things it could have been so much better. I do miss Tamsin's in your face snark, but she isn't really the same person since she's been reborn. But one of the things I liked about her was that she was much more objective than the rest of the gang, but now she's fully in the fold like them all. I'd like it if she regained that perspective.
224. TheUberFan
I've said it before...but I don't know that Bo has ever really fully had a mature love for anyone yet. Dyson was her first post highschool relationship and the only one who didn't die. They just kind of happened really. It fell in her lap, this awesome and hot guy who's heroic and can keep up (mostly) with her chi requirements.

She experiences her first rejection because of him and doesn't know how to cope. She then pretends it didn't happen and threatens to make him love her back. That comes across as still a bit on the high school love standard.

Then with Lauren...she's a dream scenario. A human who knows her and doesn't fear her and loves her. And I think Bo's attracted to that humanity after a decade of killing all her lovers.

She was more mature in her dealings with Dyson than Lauren...but looking at her now with both of them... I just think there's such a level of emotional immaturity...that she doesn't really want to do what she needs to to fight for a relationship. Being with Dyson was tough and they were on again off again as Kenzi and Hale joked.

Then with Lauren, she'd talk a good game about how important Lauren was to her, but always seemed to find a way to not be where Lauren needed or asked her to be.

So maybe Bo needs some alone time...figure herself out first before she tries anything serious with anyone.
225. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic I agree. While I feel Bo does love them, I feel maybe she doesn't love them as much as she says/believes. Maybe that's why the rune potion thing Tamsin used didn't work. I stated above about her and Lauren lying to each other constantly. Someone said like.. "lying doesn't matter when it comes to love" basically, and how does it not? If you're lying, you have something to hide that either you think is inappropriate/will upset the other or you just don't trust them enough to understand the truth. A lot of people took Levi saying Bo wears her humanity like a shield as a good thing, but I took it as she was holding on to her humanity through Lauren. Being with a human, not someone who turned into a wolf or anything else, and having them accept you. Also not killing them. She was the first human she didn't kill during sex, if I am correct.

That's what I am hoping this Rainer situation will do. Have Bo step back and evaluate her feelings, where she stands and if she should be with anyone at this point.

Bo could end up with anyone with how things are going. All ships are failing besides RainBo. Bo doesn't deserve any of them at this point anyway.
226. TheUberFan
Cross posting from my comment on Showcase:

Here's something else that suggests the memories from Waves are not real. In Sleeping Beauty School, Bo grabs the maid who regards her as a stranger. This supposedly happens AFTER the memories from Waves. And notice Bo jumped from the train and didn't evaporate.

Maid: Shh! You'll awaken him!
Bo: Him?
Maid: I-I don't think I can say.

Maid: Beautiful eyes. Both brown and blue. You're the one!
Bo: What is this place? Who is 'he'?

Maid: You made him angry! This is all your fault!

Next time we see Bo, she's knocked out the maid and is taking her chi.

Bo: Just enough. Just enough to get out.
Bo: It's time to go.
227. TheUberFan
I agree, @Bore-mudaTriangle. She doesn't deserve any of them. I feel she took Dyson for granted because she knew he'd be there for her. She's unrealistic about Lauren who broke up with her and reiterated it twice...and yet Bo still considered her "in the running".

She never included Tamsin, even though we know Tamsin feels something for her. But then Tamsin doesn't include herself either. Maybe she just got fed up watching Bo go on and decided to vent her frustrations on Dyson.

I still think there is potential with Tamsin and Bo. Just not until Bo clears her Rainer issue and actually grows up a bit.
228. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic Yeah, I don't really understand how Bo didn't get Lauren dumped her, and was not a choice and hasn't really been since their break. If Lauren wanted her, they would've been together until Rainer came up. She was ready to get back with her when she saw her at the Dark Fae party, but Lauren basically said "See ya round!"

Yeah, I still think there is potential. Even if Bo hasn't included her, that doesn't mean she can't in the future. This show is about a succubus so I am sure her romantic interests will change. Yet, I feel Dyson and Lauren will always be made out to be "interests."
229. TheUberFan
One of the reasons that I get so irritated at the triangle is that it's artificial now. We've seen her with both. It didn't work out.

Theoretically, she could find her way back to Dyson, because their relationship was short circuited right as it was about to really get going...but I think Bo's story has progressed beyond that. I know Dyson/Bo fans hate me for saying's just my opinion.

I don't see any future with Lauren other than possible random bangage and kissing.

I see the most potential with Tamsin but Bo has to see her again. She started to at the end of last season but has been a hot mess since she got back. And other than Groundhog Fae, haven't really interacted much.

That's all after Bo gets her head screwed on straight and figures out herself first and grows a bit emotionally.

And I want Rainer to jump in Massimo's lava pit without the twig. ;)
230. nypinta
As I read the comments and ponder the show I'm watching Elementary which is an excellent show were all the characters talk to each other. A lot. Nothing happens off screen. Just sayin'.
231. TheUberFan
Talk to each other, you say? On screen???

What sort of madness is this!!
232. TheUberFan
Oh hey...remember when Tamsin woke in a panic, grabbed Kenzi and said, "Whatever you do, don't trust Trick!!!!"

And then disappeared for an episode to rest, or something...

Did anything come from that major bombshell at all? Did Kenzi tell Bo? Did she confront Trick? Did Tamsin tell anyone else?

Oh right. The answer is no.

233. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic Yesss. The traingle just isn't working anymore, and it hasn't worked even when she went with each seperately. She could go back to Dyson.. yet.. I do feel she has moved on from him in a way. And I don't think there are many DyBo fans.. not that I've seen. I think on the Showcase Blog I've seen 1. Maybe Doccubus and Valkubus fans drown them out.

See, I understand why Lauren/Bo fans want them to happen. It's their preference and they see chemistry, just like Valkubus fans want Tamsin/Bo. But. I don't feel Lauren will ever be completely happy unless Bo is hers and hers alone. She wasn't happy then, she won't be happy now/future. What can change to make her happy with Bo? What in the relationship, I mean. If Lauren was so concerned about their lying to each other, she should've said and worked it out. But I feel Lauren's real problem was that Bo is a succubus and will have other lovers, that she can't stop it and have her to herself.

See, I do too. She has strength like Dyson, she is smart (not as scientifically smart as Lauren of course), and she is honest. Of course each interest has their own things they bring to the table, but. I really hate how the writers give Tamsin/Bo moments in one episode, and don't even mention/bring them up in the following episodes.

Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense, I was ranting and I tend to get jumbled up when I do. D:
234. Bore-mudaTriangle
Lol! About not trusting Trick.. also did Bo warn her "loved ones" about what Levi said? Like "You guys should maybe watch your backs and keep safe 'cause ya know, one of you are gunna die!"
235. nypinta
@Bore-mudaTriangle You're making sense. I think the writers thought it would be "fun" to have Bo and Tamsin have a few moments but made sure that they happened in ways that could be ignored later, like in a repeating day where no one else would remember them getting together, or like in last season when all of their encounters were either the product of fae-shenaningans or not what they seemed. The problem is that it wasn't fun, it was teasing and it's caused more divisions in a fandom already divided. There are a lot of Dyson/Bo fans, but they do get drowned out on the Showcase site or they don't visit knowing the reaction their posts will get. Or they just don't vocalize their preference. I too feel that Bo has moved on in many ways from Dyson. However, he's not the same person as he was in season one, so it a way he's moved on from her as well. But they've both changed in ways that if they were to revisit their relationship I think it would be a much better, more fullfulling one.
236. Bore-mudaTriangle
@nypinta Yeah, they probably thought it was "fun" but they kept teasing it. If it were meant to be a one-time thing that wasn't supposed to mean much, then why keep going back to them flirting/kissing every couple episodes? And you're right, most instances that they were together were ones that were okay to be forgotten. When they were infected by the parasite and became adolecent acting, the kiss and secrets and such they shared was forgotten, the time loop - no one else knew what they were doing, the kiss in Brazenwood was from the machine which was brought up to Kenzi the day after, but wasn't explained further. I feel the show is so divided that the writers are going to have a hell of a time when/if they ever choose a actual full time lover for Bo because they will loose fans/get shit with either choice they make.

Yes, they have both changed. But I feel Bo uses Dyson as her boyguard type thing. She knows he will be there, just like in this episode she just barked "Dyson." with a nod and he went to deal with the zombies. So I feel Bo has more growing to do, to realize how much Dyson actually does for her.
237. TheUberFan
I agree with both of you @Bore-mudaTriangle and @nypinta.

And I don't necessarily take what's seen online as totally indicative of offline fandom. I have no doubt that there are quite a large group of Dyson/Bo fans too.

I don't want to minimize any "competing ship", I guess, and the numbers done mean anything one way or another story line wise. Or shouldn't. If a story and relationship makes sense, then that's the way they should go and fans can either like it or not or new fans will like the new thing better or whatever.

While I'm displeased that Tamsin/Bo have gotten the short end so far, at the same time, I really do mean what I say. Bo has to sort herself out before she's viable ship material for anyone.

But once she does, I hope she sees Tamsin again and they have a chance at least to try. Maybe it won't work out, maybe it will. But to tease with no intent is kind of cruel.

I still enjoy Groundhog Fae, but at the same time I feel a bit manipulated, I guess. So we only see them interact and working together when they're apart from everyone else? She's only interested in making out with Tamsin when she's mad at Dyson and Lauren?

That's so high school. lol
238. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic Yes, I know that there is a bigger fan base than that shown online. I suppose I shouldn't of said there wasn't a lot, since when I do look on Tumblr/Twitter, I look for Valkubus related so I guess I only see what I want to. I don't go searching around for DyBo fans.

I too don't like how little they've gotten, but agree that I don't want this Bo with her or anyone right now. She needs to go a whole season SINGLE and just finding herself. I'm also sort of glad Tamsin got the short end in the sense that, I don't want the writers to make them jump in a relationship like Lauren and Dyson did. So far of what's happened, it could be a nice work up to more moments and such. No just, "Oh you like me.. i like you.. bowchickawowwow." Yet, if they have no intention to even give Tamsin a chance, it's very cruel to her/Valkubus fans lol.

Also yes, she's only ever kissed or said something sweetish to Tamsin when no one else was around. The kiss in Brazenwood, the kiss in the woods to save Kenzi (though to feed), when Dyson was passed out on the floor when their mindset was a childs they were saying how "I can't believe I thought you didn't like me." and sharing secrets, the fight with Tamsin at the end of s3 "You're more alive than anyone I've ever met" and in Lauren's condo after Brazenwood. Some of these may not be significant or romantic related, but most, if not all of her "deep" conversations with Tamsin have been with just her and Tamsin. Unless I am forgetting some.
239. TheUberFan
No you're totally right. I'd like to think they're leading up to something eventually but not until Bo is ready. :D
240. Bore-mudaTriangle
@UberFaenatic Btw.. thanks for my avatar pic on the Showcase blog. ;)
241. TheUberFan
My pleasure. It was fun to look that one up. Or disturbing.

Or disturbingly fun.

Or funly disturbing.

242. lonewolf
@Uberfae and @Kiersten, I've reading some earlier comments. The both you speculated on Crystal's fate. All snarkiness aside this is my theory. Crystal did look like she was close to dying. But, The Morrigan was wanting to gain DL's trust, for that reason that wouldn't have left her there. What I think happened is this. Now, DL did tell Crystal about her eco-terrorist days, but I think they were irrelevant. What was important is Crystal witnessing DL remove that thing from that guys throat. Then when she and DL were in that room DL was told to look under the canvas. Then she realizes it's Fae bullshit. The whole time Crystal is right there taking it all in. Humans knowing about Fae, especially Dark Fae. What I think happened is they promised to release Crystal if she would come with them. So they release Crystal long enough to get DL on her way to the Dark Fae compound and then she's history, a ghost. I don't think anybody here would believe that the Morrigan would keep a promise like that.
I have been rethinking the seed business and where it is/was now. So unless the essences of the five Una Mens can travel any amount of distance then it could be anywhere. I don't think that would be the case, tho. Just because I pointed out that there was a ventilation fan in the background doesn't mean there wasn't one in their lair. We just never saw it. And somebody may have been reaching for the seed and dropped it. And did one the Una Mens have to open the basket it was in so the essences of the Una Mens could enter the seed. And I don't even want to get into the where is it or who has it thing.
@UberFaenatic, earlier in this thread you asked about where Tamsin had gone off to for a month. It was during Groundhog Fae that she and Bo were talking on the couch. It was then that Tamsin told Bo she had gone off to seek own kind.
As for Bo, in my opinion she will have to suffer an enormous amount of humility before her friends to get their forgiveness. Because humility is not a part of her character right now. This is one of the reasons she has become the Bo we see now. I have always felt that if one does not temper their pride with humility it leads arrogance. And that, I feel is the road she is headed down right now. An example of that is when she and Dyson were in Tricks keg room and he saw them there. He told them something of which I'm not sure of. But her response was an arrogant "close the door" and he gave her that bottle and told her Ianka was awake he started to tell her to be easy on her she gets all snappy and grabs the bottle out of his hands. That was arrogance.
One last thing, with all this talk of trains I have song that I played a few times. It's called "The Passenger" by Iggy Pop. I know some are going to say Iggy Pop!! This a good music video. It has clips of old movies, some black and white and most are from the 40's, 50's and early sixties. Bogart, Gene Kelly, young Paul Newman, Hope, Sinatra,etc. It is an excellent video. It's on youtube, type in the passenger and then find the video uploaded by Commander Putney. You'll know the one I'm talking about because a beautiful blonde is walking next to a train. All you folks that have "dated" themselves may enjoy it.
@ WhiskeyWhite, AARP auto insurance, one year 36.08 a month for full coverage for a year. I have just "dated myself somewhat. Good night everybody and sweet dreams. :)
243. Bore-mudaTriangle
@lonewolf I think UberFaenatic was talking about when Tamsin disappeared after she went off the cliff in s3. Dyson looked for her everyday but she wasn't there, until he found her in the bush as a child, when Bo woke.
244. TheUberFan
@lonewolf...actually what I was asking was where was Tamsin when Bo was missing. She and Dyson were headed off a cliff. We know Dyson shifted and survived...but the truck cab filled with the same black smoke that took Bo.

Dyson set his alarm to remind him to go to the crash site daily at the same time...and Kenzi pointed out he had been going every day for a month and still hadn't found anything and he insisted on going yet again.

The logic of that fails me though. I mean why go daily if you don't find anything at all? Imagine that...a minimum of 30 visits to the crash site where he looks around and sniffs around. And nothing. And yet, he keeps going.

The only reason I can come up with is kind of lame. lol It's that the show wanted to establish and make absolutely clear that Tamsin was not there while Bo was forgotten...but that when the spell was broken, all the sudden we see little T.

So where was she in the interim? My personal guess is she was also on the train. Whether she interacted with Bo or not, your guess is as good as mine.

But given Tamsin's warning to Bo in "Those Who Wander"...that her betrayal of her boss "cursed them both" and that Bo had "no idea"...I can imagine she didn't have a fun time while she was there.

I also think given the time frame, that Tamsin died at least once while she was away. Why? Well, she was alive when she was smoked away. The next thing we see is a tiny T.

Then she goes from tiny T to full grown adult (physically) in less than two weeks (established in Turn to Stone).

So from that I theorize she was still Season 3 Tamsin for at least a portion of her time after she was smoked away...but that she had to have died at least one time while she was gone.

I welcome any alternate theories on this one btw. lol But the show made such a point of Dyson setting his timer as well as the fact that she was less than 2 weeks old when she turned Rachel on us, they had to have been making those points for a reason, no?

Finally, why did little Tamsin reappear after the memory spell was broken? These are seemingly unrelated events however it's pretty coincidental that Tamsin shows up right after Bo regains awareness of herself.
245. Bore-mudaTriangle
Honestly your guess is as good, if not better, than mine. I really don't know where she was, but yeah I don't think it was pleasant wherever it was. She was probably taken to the train, to pay for betrayal. But then why would she appear after the spell was broken? She would've needed to get off the train somehow like how Bo jumped, unless she was just released.. It would maybe explain why it hasn't been brought up. Maybe Rainer screwed with her memory/made her forget so she has no idea what happened/who he is. Idk.. please next episode explain a looootttt.

I'm rewatching episode 1 of this season and I just realized Clio was talking to Dyson at the bar, lol. I miss a lot until I rewatch the episodes.
Carmen Pinzon
246. bungluna
Kniting madly to get longjohns ready in time!

For a long while I argued that Bo needed to have a lover-free period to find herself and to mature emotionaly. After all the stuff that's happened this season, however, I feel like she should go full dark and have every body leave her. She needs to do some serious grovelling and working her way back into their good graces.

As for Dyson, I loved them in season 1. I pined for them in season 2. By now, I don't think they can be together in any satisfying way. Maybe a Bo-Dyson lasting relationship can be an end game, but a lot of water over the damm has to pass before that can be acomplished in a way that doesn't cheapen them (more)!
247. TheGardner
I never saw Valkybus as a viable 'ship' because it was never mutual or reciprocated. I'm sorry, but RS looked uncomfortable and wooden each time she and AS kissed. The entire thing reeked of more fanservice bullshit and reminded me of those girl-on-girl sweeps week kisses that permeate TV. Now if I actually believed the show would go there, as in an actual relationship between them, than I would be more open to it, espescially since I actually like Tamsin this season. As it is I think she's dead at the end of the season, finishing what she started taking Rainer's soul to Valhalla.

@whiskeywhite - I don't think I am a'tough audience'. I just prefer things to be more organic and feel less manufactured. We saw Hale's death coming a mile away and I would have preferred them spending their last day having a real conversation about their relationship or just hanging out together since we never really got to see that.. But I am someone who finds everyday romance more important/sweet/sexy than grand gestures.
248. jdknight
The wanderer was playing when Bo and Dyson entered the Temple just to remind people
249. jdknight
The wanderer was playing when Bo and Dyson entered the Temple just to remind people
250. jdknight
The wanderer was playing when Bo and Dyson entered the Temple just to remind people
251. TheUberFan
That's the funny thing about chemistry and perception @TheGardner. Some people can see things and others don't see them. I'm hoping that after Bo is repaired (for lack of a better word), that we see where that can go.

Of course that means Tamsin is alive, which by your theory she is not. So I hope your theory is wrong. ;)
252. TheGardner
@UberFae - Like I said if the show wants to persue an actual relationship between Bo and Tamsin, I am willing to give it a shot. The contrived kisses and arguable subtext they can keep. I am also fine if they want to go there with her and Dyson. I like this version of Tamsin and I really like her friendship with Kenzi, so I don't really want her to die either, plus I want Linda Hamilton to come back next season. :-)
253. nypinta
I do think Tamsin was also taken to the train. I think Dyson kept going back at the same time because he knows that if a valkyrie dies they're supposed to be reborn in the same place, so he decided to be meticulous about when he would go back to find her. (I suspect Dyson is a virgo. ;) ) And I agree that it was also to establish both the amount of time that had passed (a month) as well as firmly establish that Tamsin was not in the field and to make it clear that the spell being broken is what triggered her return. I think whoever arranged for Bo to be taken put on the train needed Tamsin on the same plane for a reason. Or when the spell is broken Tamsin remembers everything as well and chooses to die so she'll wake up in the field so she can help Bo.
254. lonewolf
@Bore-mudaTriangle and @ Uberfaenatic, I just googled reborn valkyries, valkyries rebirth and I couldn't find anything about re-born valkyries. The only thing I found was that some valkyries are born from noble families. I googled 2 sites but I'm going to check out more sites. You two have me going on that now. I have to know, but I don't think I'll get much more.
255. lonewolf
@Bore-mudaTriangle and @ Uberfaenatic, I just found a poem titled Valkyrie Reborn. The first line says "From the dust she will arise"so could it be possible that the reason Dyson went back to the place where she and Dyson went off the cliff is because that's where she was reborn. I had to find out. We Virgo's are picky that way. My girlfriend says I have a borderline case of OCD. She may be right but it keeps the house clean.
256. Bore-mudaTriangle
@lonewolf Maybe. Dyson didn't sound too sure if she had died or not, he said to Kenzi that he needs to find her because she saved his life, and she was the last person to see Bo.

Maybe she was taken to the train and was being tortured or whatever for betrayal, and right after/when the spell was broken, whoever was torturing her killed her and she showed up reborn on the last spot she was in the physical plane? I don't know.. I'm not too sure why she would show up when the curse was broken. Like why that time? I'm not sure how she got off the train either. Hopefully we will have more train flashbacks.. actual memory ones.
257. Bore-mudaTriangle
Oh, and about Tamsin dying at the end of the season. If this does happen I don't think it will be permanent. Maybe she goes to Levi to save her, since it is her last life. So she trades Levi something for Tamsin to be reborn again. But really it can be anyone who dies. I don't have the slightest idea who, I assume whoever it is will come back.
258. nypinta
A while back (or somewhere else) someone asked why Dyson would say that Tamsin saved his life when she drove him over the cliff in the truck. Just wanted to point out that wasn't what he was talking about. At the time he said it they didn't have their memories of Bo so from his, and probably all of the fae that had been captured, perspective it was Tamsin that rescued them all from Taft. And he apparently didn't recall that she ran off the road on purpose trying to hit someone, so that memory was also taken. It wasn'tuntil the spell was broken that he remembered Tamsin saying something about Bo's father.

I do think her reapparence is directly related to the spell. The timing is too much to be a coincidence.
259. lonewolf
If Tamsin did get brought to the train it would indicate, I feel, that the train is tied into Norse legend. So maybe he brought Tamsin to the train to finish the job of bringing Rainer to Valhalla. I had said earlier after some research that Odin was able to shift and take any human form. As far as timelines are concerned, I think the writers are rather flexible when it comes to that, along with other aspects of the show. Question, do they produce a whole season then present it to us.
260. lonewolf
@nypinta it could very well be that the timing of Tamsin's reapperance coincides with the lifting of the curse. And Tamsin is the one that took out the gaurds where everyone was being kept. All Bo did was unlock their cells. You could call it a team effort on both their parts, but Tamsin took the lead.
When I first came on here and let my meatloaf get cold someone said it's addicting. They couldn't have been more right. It most definitley is.
261. nypinta
@lonewolf, I know it was a team effort. (More of Tamsin then Bo though..) but I was just pointing out that at the time Dyson made the comment to Kenzi about Tamsin saving his life that he wasn't referring to her driving off the road. He was referring to her going to Taft's because at the time he nor anyone else had their memory of Bo so that he thought at the time he made the comment that only Tamsin came to get him. People seem confused about why he said what he did and think he meant she saved his life when she drove the truck off the cliff.
262. TheUberFan
Oh good point @nypinta.

Also I agree there seem to be a lot of tie-ins with Norse mythology. What throws me is the upcoming references to knights.

In my mind, Knights are more...Arthurean Legend, I guess?
263. lonewolf
@nypinta, so what you are saying is that even if Bo was there at Tafts that Dyson doesn't remember her being there because of the memory loss?
Maria Payne
264. Georgiana2494
Some pictures from the next episode "Origins" are up.
265. Loser
@Bore-mudatriangle im glad you enjoyed s3 with Tamsin as well. She really brought some spunk to the series.
i really loved s3, the Bo and Tamsin moments.
were so deep. Tho Bo cant just appreciate the awesum Tamsin. Like it sucked how she always named the othrrs if they were alright? But never Tamsin.
which is alright, they can still save the story.
if they give em more screentime and deep moments, no sex. Maybe some kissing. but that something happens and bo realizes all that Tamsin has done and how she feels with her by her side.. slow development ya know. Dunno if i make sense lol. @nypinta i know what you mean, they had good ideas, but also ruined it at the end. I hopw they make up for it in s4/5. If there will be a s5. That reinier sucks ass. Altho hot af. And i agree with all of you. One minute they warn eachother for something and next thing.. we dont hear anything about it after. So lame.
266. nypinta
@lonewolf He didn't at the time he said it, because none of them remembered Bo. For some reason that continues to be a point of confusion that I've seen here and elsewhere. But now they all remember Bo I'm sure he remembers her being at Taft's. He just didn't at the time he made the statement. So like how everyone assumed Kenzi was the "talented fae PI" because she was taking Bo's role as no one remembered Bo, Tamsin took on the sole credit for saving the fae.
267. lonewolf
@Uberfaenatic, after having just read up on Arthurean Legend it seems that there is no truly factual evidence to provide a true timeline. It is all over the place. But one author puts him around the 11th century which would coincide with the Norse invasion of Britain in 1066. But like I said, some put him as being alive (if he was a real) around AD69 or thereabouts. There were also twelve knights that sat at the round table. And then of course we have the Knights Templar. But I believe they were more involved with Christianty and the escorting of nobility to Jerusalem. There were Knights pretty much all throughout history from the 11th century on maybe somewhat earlier. From looking at the picture I'm going to throw a number out there (probably wrong)and say late 14th-maybe early 15th century. But those pants look more modern than something that would come from that era. So who knows, maybe it is Bo dressed up from the waist up in medeival garb and modern day clothing waist down. Take a good look at the belt also. It looks as tho it could be modern day. Wonder what she's wearing for shoes.
268. TheUberFan
I tend to think roughly around a thousand years ago for each I guess...but thematically, when I think Knights, I think Round Table, not Nordic mythology.
C. H.
269. SmurfFae
On the last picture, did Bo cut off someone's braid?
C. H.
270. SmurfFae
On the last picture, did Bo cut off someone's braid?
272. TheUberFan
Well, there's a pic of Bo holding the braid and Rainer holding the braid. So I guess it's important hair.
274. drusilla_doll
Apparently Eve Harlow is credited for ep 12 as 'Sister Epona' - so she's probably that knight we saw in the promo pic. The synopsis of the next ep is about Bo being reluctant to take up her destiny as prophesised by an order of knights.

It's a pity that the promo pics of Rainer just make me angry more than anything else. If Bo's not under a spell or had her memories severely manipulated I am going to be bitterly disappointed with the writers for forcing this character on us. It makes Bo look so bad that just 3 days on a train is enough to make her stop loving the two people who she said she loved just before going back to the train and fall madly in love with some guy she never met before as her 'soulmate'.

Where are the pics of Kenzi? Or Lauren? Dyson I can understand because it looks like him honoring Hale at his grave, but...ugh I really hope that the Bo/Rainer Destiny-Train stuff leaves room for other imp storylines which still need follow up or resolving.
275. lonewolf
@Uberfaenatic, yes I had meant Arthur and the 12 knights of the round table. I just got carried away with trying to see if the nordic invasion was around the same period, not that it really meant anything. Where is this picture of Bo and Rainer holding a braid of hair. Is it brunette.
277. lonewolf
@drusilla_doll, found them, thank you. That does look like the same lock of hair. Do I see hints of blue in it or is it lighting.
He definitely had her under a spell on the train, I thought it may have been lifted because of the way she was looking at herself in the mirror after she had slaughtered the Una Mens. And then again when she was sitting on the bed and she says she wants to trust him. But I'm beginning to think otherwise. His gift of foresight most likely would make him a master at manipulating people. If this guy is still around come the end of the season, I'll wait for the next season to start. If he is still around come the next few episodes or if he and Bo really hook up I may be done with it. This past season has been too dark and gloomy for me. I realize AS was pregnant or had just had the baby but the invitaion to the ceremony and the ceremony itself were duds. The only part that caught me was when she went into that demonic state and sucked chi from Stella, Trick, Kenzi and DL, then she comes out with that "only I choose who lives" line. Other than that it was, eh. But this business with the" he's my destiny" bit just pissed me off.
So we still have the crown, which is important, not only during the time when Bo was on the train but when she came back and it was on the floor next to him. Then there's the seed and the shoes. Their is a lot to tie up still. Lets see what we get for the two episodes. They have only an hour and a half left to either satisfy people or disappoint them.
The next episode is called the begining? Isn't that what DL said after Evony left and she pulled that strip of DNA off her lip. The beginning. I guess we'll find out in two weeks. Once again drusilla_doll, thanks for telling me how to find the pictures.
278. lonewolf
It begins, we'll see how it ends.
279. Bore-mudaTriangle
@lonewolf The next episode's title changed from It Begins to Origin.
280. drusilla_doll
The name of the ep has been changed from 'It Begins' to 'Origins'.

Whenever I hear 'it begins' I can't help but think of Babylon 5 - When Ambassador Kosh said 'And so it begins.' It was a major tag line for the show and was often featured in the opening credits. It's also been used in other genre shows and probably has roots further back in literature for all I know. So I don't think it was necessarily ever meant to specifically refer to DL's 'Here's to it beginning.' comment in that other episode. Then again, I could be completely wrong about that. Interesting, though, that the title has been changed.
281. Bore-mudaTriangle
A week hasn't even passed yet and I am getting restless for this next episode. I want to see how it all ends, and hopefully there will be a big battle at the end.
282. lonewolf
@drusilla_doll, I thought I had heard that before, been awhile.
Carmen Pinzon
283. bungluna
Rainer does look very noble in that picture, argh!

Knowing EA, half the important stuff will take place off-line and we will have to fill-in-the-blank. I'm glad I have y'all for this, since my imagination doesn't work that way.
284. nypinta
I realize that the conductor or Rainer said it was three days until the next stop, but that doesn't mean that Bo was only on the train for 3 days. Dyson had been going to the same place every day for a month and Bo was taken the same day that Dyson and Tamsin went over the cliff. She also said to Rainer that time moves differenlty on the train. She had time to create all those clues for herself to get back on the train, including going to a concert to hear Ianka sing. All of that does not happen in just 3 days. I think the 3 days was just from the time she found herself on the train till she found that butterfly, and in those 3 days she and Rainer did not get along. It wasn't until she touched the butterfly and he saw what she did that both of them seemed to have a complete change of heart about each other. So we don't actually know how much time passed for them after that. Do I think he's manipulating her? Maybe. Maybe they're both being manipulated. But as stated before, when Bo got on that train she was not attatched to either Dyson or Lauren so she had no reason not fall for someone else. Especially a hottie in trouble that wants to rid the fae of the great divide. The man is catnip.

The fact that we've been strung along to thinking he was going to be this giant uber big bad or Bo's father and make us watch them recreate a traingle that doesn't exisit just so it'll feel more insane when she comes back and says, "he's my destiny!" when she couldn't "choose" for months is what really irritates me. Having Rainer turn out to be something different is not a problem for me. The weird abruptness of him not being what they've hinted at since the middle of season 3 is. It is almost like they changed their mind about who he was supposed to be in the episode where Bo went back to the train. Or the moment they got Kyle Schmid to play him. It feels like they aren't even following their own plan. But he might still turn out to be kinda horrific in the next few episodes. Just because he's easy on the eyes and Bo is currently fooled doesn't mean she won't end up kicking his ass later.
285. lonewolf
@nypinta, I think Rainer said she had missed her stop five times. If there's three days betwen stops then we have at least fifteen days. The thirty days from when Dyson and Tamsin went over the cliff does make sense.
I wonder if that tune he was playing "The Final Countdown" was some subtle clue as to what was going to happen.
288. katotela
I have not read all the comments yet so sorry if i am reapiting what have been already commented above.
first of all i totally agree with everything Kiersten have said about tamsin,i dont see her and bo going anywhere,relationship wise i mean.they could be realy friend yes,but lovers dont think so.
someone at showcase blog suggested that the realy bo could be stuck in the card as little tamsin asked kenzi back at ep 2 and suggested that when half of the card burnt,maybe bo was burned too and it could be her hand reaching for the seed.could that be possible?
that crazy man dyson and tamsin met and he told them about three sisters,two dead and one is dead and alive and he kept yelling repeatedly that she took her from me.what did that mean?who was taken from him?is there something in that story?
finally,poor kenzi,that final scene realy broke my heart.i was at work and couldn't control myself from crying.i had to lie to my co worker that i. received bad news from home about a dead relative.LG is turning me into a realy bad employee.
sorry for my bad english
Susan White
289. whiskeywhite
@katotela comments, LG is turning me into a realy bad employee. Me too. I'm SO not getting my work done. I feel like a (deliciously) truant child.

@UberFaenatic - I know Dyson/Bo fans hate me for saying's just my opinion. The point of the culture we try to promote on this site is that nobody "hates" anybody for their opinions. We disagree - respectfully. I know it's just a turn of phrase and I'm sure you don't believe that, but words do matter. They affect how we think.

I agree @nypinta: There are a lot of Dyson/Bo fans, but they do get drowned out on the Showcase site or they don't visit knowing the reaction their posts will get. I personally know four Dyson/Bo fans in my city who watch but don't bother to go on line. (And one is a lesbian, although she just doesn't like Lauren. She might be totally up for a Tamsin/Bo relationship).

I guess I would be in the Dyson/Bo camp but frankly I'm more Team Dyson, as I have always called myself. I just want him to find someone who treats him well, which Bo certainly does not. I agree @bungluna: Maybe a Bo-Dyson lasting relationship can be an end game, but a lot of water over the dam has to pass before that can be acomplished in a way that doesn't cheapen them (more)!

I've said before that perhaps another wolf shifter would be a good mate for Dyson (Angel's a shifter, but what kind?). Can't you just see them running happily through the woods together as wolves, à la Bitten? In fact, @SuzyM's fanfic about Dyson has him meeting another wolf shifter as a potential mate (but he's not interested. He's still stuck on you-know-who).
Susan White
290. whiskeywhite
I agree with you, @drusilla_doll: If Bo's not under a spell or had her memories severely manipulated I am going to be bitterly disappointed. Rainer's a hottie, and seemingly a very nice hottie, but how shallow can Bo be if she's not memory-manipulated?

I wondered what this scene means as well, @katotela:
that crazy man dyson and tamsin met and he told them about three sisters, two dead and one is dead and alive and he kept yelling repeatedly that she took her from me.what did that mean?who was taken from him? is there something in that story?
It went on too long for it not to have some significance. Did I miss some explanation?

@lonewolf - "AARP auto insurance...". I have never laughed as long about a joke on this site as that one. My goodness, the (LG) woods are absolutely alive with us old folks. :-) Then you follow up with: My girlfriend says I have a borderline case of OCD. She may be right but it keeps the house clean. Another laugh. Wanna come live at my house? Hey, do you make good meatloaf? I love meatloaf.

You asked: Question, do they produce a whole season then present it to us? Yes, they write and film an entire season long before we see it. They've been hiding Hale's death for a long time.
Susan White
291. whiskeywhite
@bungluna - I'm glad you got the long johns joke. I was worried I was being too obscure. A little matching toque might be nice. Perhaps with a Toronto Maple Leafs logo?

@TheGardner: I think (Tamsin's) dead at the end of the season, finishing what she started taking Rainer's soul to Valhalla. A new and very interesting idea (though not a happy one for Tamsin fans). Acacia certainly gives her hell for not following through on that basic Valkyrie duty. We'll see soon enough. I wonder if they will stretch out Tamsin's story, just to bring Linda Hamilton back next season as you say. BTW, did anyone else think that Linda Hamilton looked a little shaky?
292. TheUberFan
No worries about your English, @katotela. You did great. :)

Regarding Tamsin, I think at least in the short term, you're right. Bo is unaccessible. I think though that this is the case across the board and that they've used S4 to reset Bo romantically as well as isolate her from everyone she loves.

So I'll continue to hope that they at least have a chance to see what's there and don't short circuit something before it begins.

As for the crazy man yelling... I couldn't quite figure any of that out personally.

And I know how you feel about Kenzi. That really broke my heart too. :(
293. Bore-mudaTriangle
I thought the crazy man yelling was refering to the woman (sorry, don't remember what she is or her name) that told Dyson about his love being a prison. That she's dead and alive, like she is dead.. but alive because she was brought back. After the crazy dude rambled, that's when Tamsin came to find Bo and Acacia and said they found a lead. I just assumed that he meant her and didn't look too much into it. Guess I should go back and rewatch that part. I can't rewatch that episode again unless I want to be sad for the next week. ;P
Suzanne Metaxas
294. SuzyM
@whiskeywhite meant to ask you are you still liking the fan fiction?
295. lonewolf
@whiskeywhite, "three sisters, two dead and one both dead and alive and she took her from me". The way I see of the three sisters, one was his wife. She took her from me, She is the zombie queen, and she made his wife a zombie.
296. TheUberFan
So wrap your brain around this:

I love these characters too; their flaws and mis-steps humanize them. Which is to say: it's a long con. Or is it? ;)

That tweet is from EA and she's responding to someone who says they want the old Bo back.

Long con??? I'm curious as to your interpretations.
297. Bore-mudaTriangle
Hm.. long con. It could be so many different things. It can mean the gang and Bo are "conning" Rainer. It could be Bo is conning Rainer and the gang, so it's more believeable.. That the writers are just conning us in some way, haha. It has my interest though.

She says their flaws and mis-steps humanize them, which is to say it's a long con. Just makes me think the way Bo, or even the whole gang, has been acting is just a ploy to trick Rainer. Yet would that mean everything like Bo telling Dyson she doesn't love him anymore is just fake too? Would actually make sense, lol. Because in that same "destiny" episode, she was lovin' all over that triangle.
298. TheUberFan
It could be Bo conning everyone. Her interactions with Kenzi, Dyson and Tamsin post "he is my destiny" have been loopy.

But the first thing I thought of was that the show was conning us and that this isn't Bo.

Hey I know...maybe our Bo was stuck in the card like baby T suggested and that's why she was burned...because the card was burned when baby T touched it. And then when this Bo broke the curse, it released our Bo!

Yeah. I'll go with that.

Because I have no fae-ing idea what's going on anymore. lol
299. drusilla_doll
I just have a huge aversion to there being major romantic shortcuts taken when it comes to the romantic stuff. I'm with @TG on that point, I want things to develop organically, for there to be pay offs over time. That's why I despise this 'Rainer is Bo's soulmate and not evil like we were led to believe' storyline as told right now. Because it wasn't earned. It's an interesting twist to have Rainer just a political opponent of Trick, but I just can't buy Bo suddenly being plausibly and deeply in love with a new guy (in the space of two eps) after four seasons of development with Dyson and Lauren (and Tamsin even) as love interests for Bo. I get that it could have technically been a month of getting to know each other on the train - but in terms of screen/episode/season time it's far too short an amount of time for the audience to not feel jerked around in terms of emotional investment.

I felt that way with Lost when they skipped forward in time and decided to suddenly shoehorn Sawyer with Wonder-Juliet in an established domesticated relationship (all of which had happened offscreen, of course). It really made me feel cheated because it wasn't earned in story time at all, it was just their way of giving Sawyer the booby prize (and Juliet too) for being a popular ongoing love interest/rival for over four years.

I would much rather Bo realise she can't commit to anyone, realise she wants to win Lauren back or discover deeper passion for Tamsin than what we have currently. I ultimately still prefer Bo/Dyson in some form (even if it's only potentially years down the track) but most of all, I want it to be earned onscreen. This propensity to go for the clever gotcha over actual character development/emotional follow through just tends to makes me angry and resentful, rather than engaged and excited as a fan.
300. nypinta
It would be interesting if Bo was playing Rainer in a long con, but if she is, she didn't tell anyone else. That would make her speech to Dyson cruel if it's just part of her plan to play Rainer without telling the rest of the gang. It's that moment that makes me think it's not Bo coning anyone. But it could be something similar to the Kenzi situation with the kitsune and Bo isn't actually Bo. But she was acting very Bo like when she first got back. It wasn't until later she started acting off. I remember way back proposing that something got off the train with Bo because she seemed to be hearing voices at the house of the haunted family. Maybe she has been posessed in a way and whatever it was needed time or to be fully activated by Rainer to take her over. Or, er, something... yeah. I'm grasphing at straws.
Carmen Pinzon
301. bungluna
I choose not to believe a word that comes out of that woman's mouth!
302. drusilla_doll
Maybe she means the writers are giving us the long con. I really don't see Bo being duplicitous and tactically clever enough to conduct a successful long con on Rainer (alone or with the others help). Trick or DL on the other hand? Hell yes. Both of them excel at the secrets and lies game (in comparison). I think it's far more likely that Bo's daddy is still pulling some strings from long distance - Rainer may or may not be privy to the machinations, he might just be a pawn himself, positioning Bo to claim her birthright.

We still need to see what Lauren's been working on and who that involves. From the promo pics and trailer we saw it seems we will get some sort of graveside scene. Then there will be more Bo and Rainer doing their destiny thang.

There has to be some Lauren though, it's only logical - so what will she be up to? I wonder if Emmanuelle's pasties and nude thong costume for the upcoming episode means she will be having a sexy bed scene with Lauren? Or ....I hate to suggest it....Massimo. I'd prefer the former to the latter, mostly because of the possible squick factor not knowing if he's her lover or her son or both.

How much of Kenzi's grief will we see? (Or Dyson's for that matter) Will she try to find a way to bring Hale back or will she just be all out for revenge? Or will all of that emotional crap happen off screen?
Suzanne Metaxas
303. SuzyM
Which women? There are a few of them on the show :)
304. jdknight
Realistically neither Bo nor Kenzi can have permanent live in lover at present since much of their relationship depends on their being room mates. They will need to have permanent partners at the same time and end up being neighbors
305. Jura Renee
Longtime lurker, first time caller here. I love the recaps, the discussions and theories but I really don't get the comments complaining about "man hate" or "killing off the men" on the show.

Yeah, Hale's death was tragic but I think it was used more for cheap "Whendon-esque" ploy than any deliberate picking off of the male characters. Just like Tara in Buffy (and would anyone accuse Whedon of "woman hate"?) Hale was simply the most expendable character that due to his connection to a beloved main character (Kenzi/Willow) would have a death that would pack the most emotional punch.

Any of other of the "expendable characters" (Tamsin, Vex, Bruce, Trick, Morrigan, Acacia) wouldn't have packed such a wallop (kind of like how Ciara and Nadia's death didn't really deliver much punch) and we knew that the four main stars (Bo, Kenzi, Lauren and Dyson) were off limits. In the School of Whendon, Hale was the most logical choice--regardless of gender.

Is the "Too many women/not enough men" complaint because Dyson isn't featured enough for some folks liking? Well that too is kind of logical when you figure you have one title character (a woman-Bo) who obviously garners the most screen time and then 3 secondary leads (two women-Kenzi & Lauren, one man-Dyson) to split up the remaining screen time with. They're all part of a team and their screen time pretty much all removes around their interaction with the title character. Yeah, I know there are a lot of Dyson fans on this site but unless (or until) there is an LG spin off based around Dyson (a la Angel-which would be pretty awesome IMO, think of the back story with his past), I think the screen time is pretty fairly divided up.

I can see Tamsin potentially being built up into a 4th secondary lead which, yeah, I would see further reduce Dyson's screen time but, honestly, what is so bad about having a show that features so prominently a core of strong female characters?

It's kinda actually refreshing considering that basically EVERY OTHER TV show on earth is based around male leads or with men being the majority of the secondary leads (I mean back to Buffy, it was 1 female with Willow and 3 to 4 guys with Xander, Giles, Angel and Spike). And the shows that do feature female core tend to be nausseatingly superficial (Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives & Pretty Little Liars) or exploitative (Charlie's Angels, Le Femme Nikita).

But those shows have their audiences and their place just like the gluttony of male-fronted and male-dominated shows. So why can't Lost Girl have its place as a female-fronted, female-dominated show and not be accused of "man hate" or "killing off all the men"?
306. lonewolf
@nypinta, earlier on you made mention as to how long Bo was on the train. Between 41:45 to 41:50 Bo was talking to Dyson about what she had found out from Ianka's music box. As she was putting on her kimono she told him how she had not been in limbo for 30 days but on the train.
There is more I'd like to say before I head up to watch S2E5 or 6 I'll figure that out. whenI get there. But Evony and Mssimo? There has never been much that Ive watched that grosses me out. But that, that would be beyond gross.
307. TheUberFan
Hi @Jura Renee! Welcome to the discussion.

The reason some people are saying there's "man hate" has to do with the reaction of some whenever anyone masculine does anything heroic. To a few, it's patriarchal oppression or something when Dyson saves Bo or sacrifices or does anything heroic.

And their reason is specifically because he's a man. That's misandry.
308. TheFaeNaetor
@Jura Renee welcome to the website, and yes I agree there is nothing wrong with females showing up predominately and the males to take a secondary role. I like Dyson don't get me wrong but he has kinda worn on me this season. What really kinda pissed me off is that the ptb thought it would be a good idea for Dyson to once again show up and save the day at the Fae tent city. I am pretty sure that Bo, Tamsin, or Acacia could have easily dispensed with the silly zombies. Oh great there is the wolf again to help the poor helpless females. The ptb want us all to believe that they are so progressive when it comes to showcasing women as being strong and empowered, yet there he is once more to help out the women folk.
309. nypinta
Dyson is there as back up but he doesn't rush in to save the day hardly ever, actually. Even in this season, he might have gone to great lengths to find Bo but once he did, she was too busy saving a family for him to be rescuing anyone. And at the end he didn't even flinch when Clio had a knife to her throat. Bo is always the one that does the saving, or she gets the credit for it even when logically she shouldn't. (Like in the S3 finale when the cabbott calls Bo "the chosen one" and thanks her for saving everyone right after Tamsin actually did so.) There is zero about Dyson that ever has him acting as if he doesn't think Bo can handle things on her own, other than to point out to her she's rushing in without a plan, which is always very very true. But on the flip side Bo is always assuming that she is the only one that can handle whatever situation and rushing in to save the day.

And Joss Whedon gets a ton of crap for killing Tara, so that argument isn't really all that valid as a counterpoint. I have no problem with shows featureing strong female characters. In fact they're my favorite, from Buffy, Alias, Witch Blade, Xena, now Lost Girl, etc. But I don't need my female superheroes bolstered by making the men around them less than. Person of Interest was a show that started out with two male leads that rushed around saving people yet now the two leads have been joined by a number of seriously ass kicking women and they have no qualms about the women saving themselves and I swear somehow it ended up being the most feminist show on TV. So it does bother me that a show like Lost Girl that has so many cool female characters can't seem to find the same balance on the screen. Or why some fans insist on imbuing characters like Dyson with such dark ulterior motives to what actually happens on screen.

I don't consider Hale's death to be man hate on the writer's part however. He was the logical choice, both on and off the screen. His character didn't really have anywhere else to go. His role could easily be replaced with Tamsin stepping in as Dyson's partner. And KC himself is getting more time on screen on Saving Hope. He's the sympathetic kill. (But both Ciara and Nadia could have had greater impact if the writers had spent any time with their characters and they should have considering they got more episodes to do so late in the game of that season.) Plus they've added Vex as a reccuring character, one that I hope they expande in S5 (if they get one.) Although I do also wish they would bring back Val.

But if one were to look at the characters just on paper, they could make the case for serious man hate. Vex starts out evil incarnate. He killed children, for crying out loud. (The fact that PRA made him a sympathetic or even likeable is astounding, yet he did it.) Hale got sidelined and replaced then dead. Trick turns out to be a lying lair ass face. Dyson is depicted by many fans as forcing himself on Bo or just being used by her. He's basically been reduced to second sidekick. First Ash: dead. Second Ash: dead. You know Massimo's days are numbered. First season big bad was Aife, and she lived. All other big bads? Men. And dead. It's not an opinion I subscribe too, but the evidence is there for one to make a case.
310. drusilla_doll
I don't think it was ever portrayed that the women were 'helpless', nor that Dyson thinks they are, in fact he's repeatedly stated the opposite - especially regarding Bo. However, people who care about each other help each other. Regardless of gender. I, personally, am tired of fans complaining about Dyson choosing to aid the people he's closest to - because it shouldn't be about gender.

I don't think Dyson hasn't had enough screentime at all. I don't want him to be front and center. Bo is the lead, just as Buffy was. I love all the strong females on the show. I was particularly happy when Lauren started getting more of a story arc this year and more agency on her own instead of just being the long-suffering unhappy girlfriend appendage. Many of us here really love Kenzi, think Bo/Kenzi's BFF bond is the main ship of the show and adore how badass Tamsin is.

I can't speak for all of the posters here, but what I would like is for Dyson to not be constantly villified for being one of the main lead characters of the show. He deserves story time and attention just as much as Kenzi, Lauren and Tamsin do.

But it seems that a certain faction of the fandom feels the need complain ad nauseum about his presence or importance on the show and pick apart his actions because he is male. If he were female would it then be okay for him to help? His role in the show is protector, warrior, law enforcement - it's in his nature to fight for his loved ones and how can fans expect that to change? It would be like expecting DL to stop using science and medicine to help her friends and loved ones.

In the latest episode, he was written to arrive to help in order to show how loyal he still was to Bo, despite recent events. The point was made (in a hurtful way) that she always expected him to show up for her, so he attempted to cover his motivations and Tamsin - seeing his discomfort - backed him up. This was all to remind us how invested he has been with Bo's welfare (often at his own expense) and how emotionally devastating Bo's rejection was for him, spurring him to tell her that if Rainer turned out to be bad, he wouldn't be coming to help this time.

It was a sad development, but in some ways, it was a good wake-up call for Dyson to have. Respect and loyalty is a two way street and if Bo has come to take him too much for granted and doesn't care or respect him in the same way that he cares for her, then perhaps it's time he wasn't always at her beck and call. DL already figured this out to some extent (although her issues also had to do with incompatibility, divergent interests and her being stifled by her Fae servitude). The writers pointed out that he may have trapped himself in a prison of his own making. He has put all of his needs below Bo's. This is as bad as what was happening with Lauren and her realising her emotional needs weren't being met last year, either.

Dyson asking for more reciprocation/consideration and offering a little less blind obedience/devotion is probably a good thing in the long run. Healthier, at least.

ETA: I just wanted to add that I thought Hale was the logical choice to
die. It was either him or Trick up on the chopping block. Because they
were loved enough by other characters to have emotional/plot impact but not one of the main four. I didn't feel it was a bad decision nor that there was any agenda behind it. KCC had his own show gaining popularity and there have been scheduling conflicts in the past. I can only hope Hale's death will give Kenzi a lot of story impetus/agency. For once it's a male romantic interest getting 'fridged' as it were and that's not a bad thing.
Nadine Robb
311. cmm

"I don't consider Hale's death to be man hate on the writer's part
however. He was the logical choice, both on and off the screen. His
character didn't really have anywhere else to go. His role could easily
be replaced with Tamsin stepping in as Dyson's partner. And KC himself
is getting more time on screen on Saving Hope. He's the sympathetic
kill. (But both Ciara and Nadia could have had greater impact if the
writers had spent any time with their characters and they should have
considering they got more episodes to do so late in the game of that
season.) Plus they've added Vex as a reccuring character, one that I
hope they expande in S5 (if they get one.) Although I do also wish they
would bring back Val."

I have to disagree with you. I think Hale had tons more story left. I do agree he was on Saving Hope alot but, that shouldn't be a reason to kill him off. They coudl of reduced his screen time like they do with Vex. To me if anything Tamsin was more the logical choice since this is her last life. In fact i'm going to go as far as to say she could of died then been brought back. We've already seen that her life can be extended, Trick showed us that when she gave him "Rainer" ( his name is in brackets because I am still unsure as to his real identity). Lost girl went the easy route by killing Hale off in my opinon.

I agree with you in terms of Vexx though they should expand his role. Val however, not so much. She was an annoying character.
312. TheUberFan
We started to see real character growth for Hale back in season 2. He wasn't just Dyson's wingman...he was the heir to a legacy which he primarily rejected. His family were for the most part bigots who treated humanity and Kenzi in particular like something they scraped off the bottom of their shoes.

Hale wanted none of that. He chose a path outside of the family name and he was good at it. And he cared for humans, and Kenzi in particular of course.

I was disappointed that the show didn't give us any real indication of Hale as the Ash doing anything to make any of the changes he complained about in Season 2. It just seems he did whatever Trick told him was appropriate. I would have been interested to see him try to change minds and sway them and then maybe be discouraged by the lack of response, as opposed to simply going along with what's always been.

But of course, with KCC's expanding schedule elsewhere, we saw very little Hale last year so I do think he was the logical choice.

As for Tamsin, they've made a point that this is her last life...but like you said, @cmm, we know that Trick's blood can reboot her lifecycles. So theoretically, even if she dies, there is a path back from that.

I still would like to feel like I knew where they were going with all this. I've seen so many theories and many of them I think would be neat;, but when I look back and try to remember them or put them in any order or semblance, it's like they're scattered fragments of thought rather than anything coherent.
313. Jura Renee
I don't really have a dog in this fight, ship wise, and frankly abhor how "shipping" has ruined the enjoyment of so many shows. If I want romance, I turn off the TV and spend the night with my boyfriend. When I watch shows like Lost Girl, I want to be entertained.

I don't doubt that a group of LG fans complain about everything Dyson does. It is because he's a man? I don't think so just as I don't think that the group of LG fans always complaining about "lying, manipulative WonderLauren" (tm) or another group about the "plot device" Tamsin are complaining because they're women.

And this season, it seems like the WHOLE fandom is complaining about what a bitch Bo is. The only character that I think everyone agrees is universially beloved is Kenzi. I also doubt that the Kenzi-love has anything to do with her gender. If the character was written the same way as a guy and played by an actor with as much talent as Ksenia Solo (like Martin Freeman as Watson on Sherlock), he would also be just as loved.

I truly think most of the complaints of "man hate" are rooted in the same place that the people who irrationally complain about everything Dyson does drive their motive from---shipping wars. Different sides of the coin but the same hand doing the flipping.

I will add that one of the reasons why I like reading the discussions at H&H is that they seem, for the most part, to rise above the fray of shipping wars and seem to offer a safe place for LG fans to just have fun talking about the show. But lately I seem to be seeing more of these "man hate" comments and cracks about there are "so many men left on the show" that have raised a red flag the infectious shipping bile is seeping its way in like the flu.
314. Jura Renee
@nypinta "
But if one were to look at the characters just on paper, they could make
the case for serious man hate. Vex starts out evil incarnate. He killed
children, for crying out loud. (The fact that PRA made him a
sympathetic or even likeable is astounding, yet he did it.) Hale got
sidelined and replaced then dead. Trick turns out to be a lying lair ass
face. Dyson is depicted by many fans as forcing himself on Bo or just
being used by her. He's basically been reduced to second sidekick. First
Ash: dead. Second Ash: dead. You know Massimo's days are numbered.

First season big bad was Aife, and she lived. All other big bads? Men.
And dead. It's not an opinion I subscribe too, but the evidence is there
for one to make a case."

I'm glad you don't subscribe to it because there doesn't seem to be compelling evidence.

1.) I think Vex's character 180 is due to poor continuity and the new regime after Loveretta deciding to make the show less dark. Paul Roger Amos acting skills aside, I think the character change was wholly inorganic and came out of nowhere which has been one of the many sins of the show (But hey, they don't keep a show Bible so we know they don't give a rip)

2.) Many characters get sidelined and replaced but its a stretch to think that is because of gender. More likely, there are chemistry or off set issues at place. In Law & Order: SVU, Michelle Hurd's character Monique Jeffries, was originally Munch's partner and a main secondary character behind Elliott and Olivia but she eventually got sidelined and replaced by Ice-T for reasons that had nothing to do with her gender.

3.) Trick, I think this is more about shitting writing and lack of continuity than anything else. Remember the similar 180 we had about Bo's adoptive mom? In S1, Bo recalls her being June Cleaver and then somehow in S3, she's Joan Crawford with Alzheimers.

4.) Dyson, while, yes, you can point to irrational "fan hate" of Dyson, that isn't evidence for the show, itself, having any "man hate" towards his character.

5.) Death toll, well we can add Nadia and Ciara to the list as well as the many female Fae-villians of the week (including the multi-episode Fae Attorney General and female Una Mens leader). Aoife was the only "Big Bad" that had a personal connection to Bo with more story telling potential so you really can't say the writers choose to keep her alive instead of the expendable and one-dimensional Big Bads of the Garauda and Taft as evidence of any kid of female vs male bias.

I don't doubt that it is easy to see "man hate" when viewed through ship-bias glasses, just as I don't doubt that the LGBT fans of Lost Girl have an easy time see bias against their ships when they watch the show.

I think that is just part of human nature but to paraphrase Bo from her conversation with Dyson in 1x11 (Dis) members Only--we are more than our human nature. We don't have to chase those "rabbits" of ship-bait and howl in complaint about biases against our ships. We can fight our nature for the sake of just being fans of the show.
315. drusilla_doll
We have passionate shipping discussions here too and it can get a little heated at times. But the encouragement is not to make personal attacks against fellow posters for having a different opinion, and to present arguments (for or against a particular view) in a way which is respectful and backed up by onscreen or meta evidence.

I found this place because it was one of the few online sites which was - at the time - Dyson (as well as other characters) positive. And now I get to converse with people who have many different favourites on the show and ship differently from me. But the common denominator is that we do or have loved the show, and wish for it to still entertain us.

I, for one, enjoy shipping (be it bromance, BFF, platonic, sexual, romantic, familial etc) while watching TV shows, but I am mostly interested in watching compelling, well-written genre stories with a cast of interesting relatable characters. LG isn't exactly the most consistently written, ground-breaking show on the tube. But there have been times when it's been highly entertaining and emotionally engaging.

If only the writers put less value on keeping their audience shocked or surprised and more on keeping us invested in what ultimately happens to these fictional characters.
316. nypinta
Here's the thing, I just went back and scanned through every single comment in this thread and no one said anything about man hate or killing off all the men. A majority of the commentary is trying to figure out what is up with Bo, are her memories real or not, discussing Tamsin, and feeling sad about Hale dying. So I'm not getting into a discussion that is being responded to that never actually happened in the first place.

But once Hale gave up being Ash his character went into reverse. He was even made Dyson's cop partner again. It was almost a mercy killing to end his story now rather than have him move backwards.
Carmen Pinzon
317. bungluna
I admit I made a crack about "and then there were none," when Hale died.

When the show started, in that golden Season 1, there was more of a balance in the characters, imo. The Ash had the Morrigan. Dyson and Hale vs. Bo and Kenzie. Trickopedia and WonderLauren. Vex and Aeife.

It's not that I expect shows to be balance. Let's face it, most often we get token females and white male protagonists all over the place, with maybe a dash of color for interest.

LG caught my eye because it wasn't like the other shows: no slut-shaming, everybody equaly capable of being kick-ass, nice interesting world.

But lately, I feel like the show just throws new characters for convenience's sake and then just forgets about them. And most of these have been female. Tamsin, Crystal, Clio, Acacia; it just seems that the show adds a lot of interesting female characters, even as it drops them along the way just as fast. As counter, how many interesting male characters have we had lately? Rainer?! Nevermind that having such a large cast short-changes everybody as to air time. I just think that somewhere along the way the balance was thrown off. Again, that's my opinion.

And don't start me on the racial thing, which is another sore point with me.
318. drusilla_doll
I think Tamsin has been an excellent addition to the cast, and with her rebirth this year, she's still fitting in with the gang really well. I don't particularly like how they white-washed Vex's character, but the actor at least makes him funny and interesting to watch.

What the heck has happened to Crystal? Has there even been a mention as to her status? Was she freed and treated for nickel poisoning? Is she still imprisoned or dead? I really do hate how the writers just drop story/plot threads which they find inconvenient or not related to whatever big drama moment they want to focus on.
319. Jura Renee
I guess you missed comment #149.

As I said, I'm a long time lurker and while SuzyM's (#303) tongue in cheek "so many women" (a callback to equally sarcastic/tongue in cheek "so many men" comment #76) line was what stirred me from lurkerdom to post, my observations are based on more than just this individual thread.

These are sentiments that have been concerning me for a while with comments like Kiersten (#7) in the 4x09 recap which whiskeywhite responds to (#10) being the most recent occurrence.

The 4x08 recap with comments like #21 and #263 also was a recent ieteration though we can even go back further to before season 4 started with comments like #665 in the Top 5 LG episode posts, the 3x05 recap itself as well as comments like #10 in that recap, 3x09 recap comment #14, 3x13 recap comment #281, etc.

That's just the easy to find "man hate" term being used. We can go back and see several comments bemoaning the general representation of the male characters on screen and perceived slights against them, the lack of "bromance" time, etc.

I'm not here to pick a fight and I'm quite content to go back to lurkerdom (which I will gladly do after this post). But as someone who has greatly enjoyed reading this site, the reoccuring "LG has man hate" theme was becoming bewildering.

I'm certainly not the only lurker here and I'm probably not the only lurker finding these comments disconcerting. It's far easier to keep these sentiments silent and just leave the site as others probably have. But I thought "Eh, maybe I will speak up?" and let what happens happen. Though fret not, if you wish to keep the echo chamber in tact and stay on the train, I will leave you be and retreat back to my lurkerdom.
320. drusilla_doll
I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your opinion, even if some of us happen to disagree. I hope you will keep posting.

I personally don't think the show writers have been particularly anti-male with their writing, but they are clearly aware of common tropes. In fact, you may have noticed elsewhere that many viewers have been vocal in their opinoin that the show is still TOO patriarchical and sexist for their tastes. I think more bromance time with Bo/Kenzi and Hale/Dyson was much needed to balance out the romantic back and forths, but the writers seem to have not been as interested in that. Now Hale is gone and the opportunity is lost. Perhaps Dyson/Tamsin can get back their buddy cop camaraderie but things will be muddier now that they've 'solaced' each other.

I do get annoyed that Lauren constantly gets to say belittling things about Dyson (some of them valid, some of them not) while he remains complimentary towards her or at least has been for several seasons now. Now we have Bo and Kenzi making fun of him as well in the latest. It's admittedly pretty funny to use the term 'Mopey Dick', and he WAS an asshole in S2, but it glosses over the very real sacrifice and pain he experienced in trying to offer up his wolf essence to aid Bo against her mother and having his love for her cruelly ripped away. It impacted him for an entire season but now it's just a subject of rolling eyed ridicule.

That's just a general nitpick though, and just something which fans of Dyson (like myself) have to put up with since the writers seem to want to keep evening up the sides of the triangle of doom somehow, even when it often makes no logical sense.

I think you will find that we are a diverse group here, we don't all agree on the same topics. Nor do we expect everyone to walk in lock step.
Not by a long shot. I think this is far less an echo chamber than other fandom sites. Take for instance the Showcase Blog. It's difficult to post anything very Tamin or Dyson positive there, and if you dare criticise the character of Lauren or Doccubus, can get very nasty indeed.

From my experience here, I would say debate is welcome, as long as it stays civil and on point. :)
321. lonewolf
I'm reading all this about *man hate*, I don't see it that way. The writers or producers didn't really put much thought into developing any other man/men in the first two seasons. Even if they had, let him go off on a walkabout and bring him back later in season two or early in season three. It's a show about a woman with special abilites. And that's where the focus of the show should be. Dyson's former wolf pack mate Cayden did come into the show but just long enough to give Dyson a love interest. And then he's either dead or he's run off to lick his wounds. What if he came back, but what would he do, would he hook up with someone I'll say Kenzi, that should stir up something here. I haven't read all the comments over again, but someone on here (Kiersten?) said Bo needs another non-lover friend, as in platonic. Kenzi will either go on a rampage with or without Val. I can't see her not coming back. Not after the way Hale died. Actually I'd like to see Kenzi and DL become good friends. Evony harbors no ill feelings towards her. And it did seem that she and DL were warming up friends wise. All that being said, I don't see any real man hate here. Just not enough thought put into developing another male role for the show. But we still have 2 more episodes left. I have not seen the promos for E12 or E13, I don't care to. I'll treat these last two like the weather. And I have to wonder, am I the only *dangler* on here? Oh and @ nypinta, Vex as Bo's daddy? He'd have to mesmer his junk to keep up with Aife. On to the rest of the game.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
322. Kiersten
Hi guys! Wow, you've been busy!

Hi Jura Renee and welcome. Thanks for leaving the comments and joining our conversation. I hope you don't go back to lurkdom as we are not actually an echo chamber here but rather a place where divergent opinions are discussed and often that means respectfully disagreeing. I'm very glad you've enjoyed reading the site and I hope you'll continue to do so and not feel as though you need to slide back into lurkerdom (though I hear the room service there is fab!).

I'll cop to the man hate b/c @Jura Renee is right in that I've marked it in the recaps and other places. And I still do because I think it's important to call out hypocrisy wherever it happens, not just against women on a man-led show but against men on a woman-led show. But I did not call Hale's death a result of the man hate. I did mention sarcastically about how we so many men on this show as it was that of course we lost another, because I think the show has been moving more and more to the marginalization of the male characters. Imbalance of either gender changes the parameters and ethos of this or any show (and not in a good way). If this was a woman-only, men-are-just-the-guest-stars show to start with, a la Sex and the City, that woud be one thing. But Dyson and Trick and Hale have been core characters from the very first episode and the elevation of Zoie Palmer to a regular cast member along with Tamsin's addition to the recurring roster have changed those parameters (and arguably Paul Amos' increased profile as well), some would say to the good. To be fair, I would probably say the same were those additions mostly male characters because I dislike when shows add new characters to the roster who inevitably take time from the original characters with whom I signed on to make the journey. But as to Hale's death, it was forecast as far back as episode 6 and has been one of the top two choices in these discussions since then and while I regret the loss of another male character on Lost Girl, I don't see that loss an endemic of what I've called "man hate".

When I say man hate, I mean just about all that @NYPinTA mentioned earlier. That is not to say that I do not want or enjoy woman focused shows because they are remarkably thin in the offering. I love those shows and gravitate toward them, which is why I fell in love with Lost Girl in the first place. However, one of the errors many such shows make is degrading the men in order to empower the women and Lost Girl has repeatedly done this, especially regarding how the female characters often talk about Dyson. Nobody objects when Kenzi or Doctor Lauren or Tamsin or even Aoife swoop in at the last moment to aid Bo in a conflict. Dyson is the only character who is mocked for that behavior when, from the very beginning of the season, he has been positioned and characterized as Bo's partner/equal even by Bo herself in S2E2. In contrast, when say, Doctor Lauren forces Vex to give up his blood in order to complete the chain and "save" Bo, or Kenzi shows up to do any one of a hundred things that have saved Bo at the last minute, it's lauded as a heroic move.

Ever since the start of S3, this hypocrisy and targeting of the male characters, Dyson in particular, has been part and parcel of the scripts of Lost Girl although noticeably more prominent during any episodes featuring the doccubus romantic relationship. For every heroic, honorable, or admirable acknowledgement they give him there's at least one or more cracks against him as though the female characters can only be elevated by ripping him down. Which is bullshit. Doctor Lauren stands or falls on her own merits or lack thereof as does the doccubus romantic relationship. If you have to cheapen one character/ relationship in order to better validate the other, you have a serious flaw in the writing of said character and relationship. And yet, no one would dare call Doctor Lauren an asshole, but Dyson is fair game and he was called so by the women who claim to know and love him best - Kenzi, Tamsin and Bo. That's the man hate.

Do we need to be careful not to champion a paternalistic mentality that seeks to squelch any female empowerment? Absolutely. But we also need to call out the reverse, a maternal mentality that denigrates men in order to empower itself because neither is acceptable but more importantly, women do not need to qualify their empowerment against men. It's an inherent right and a fact of nature that exists independent of any male recognition. We neither need their approval for it nor do we need to lessen them to claim it.

Back to Lost Girl. People only characterize Bo being helped by the people who love her as infinging on her agency when it's a man (namely Dyson) who does it and that's just absurd. Bo is powerful, yes, but could she pull a Fae's head right off? No. That's about upper body strength and has nothing to do with whether or not she can take care of herself because whether or not Bo can take care of herself has never been in question. In fact, Dyson is usually the first to step back and let her have sway because he is so bloody confident in her abilities. I'll give you that he was showing off a bit, but the man's had his heart ripped out - again - and I think anyone in that situation is entitled to a little "see what you're giving up?" posturing. And saying he stole her agency or whatever also handily ignores the fact that Bo told Tamsin to call Dyson to come back her up. Even she knew she was going into terrority where a little help from one of the most powerful Fae around would be a good thing. Really, it's just too bad about his penis.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
323. Kiersten
Hey @lonewolf and welcome. Thanks for also coming out of lurkdom to add your voice to our conversation.

I think the male characters were very well developed in the first two seasons. It's only since S3 that they've become more of an afterthought unless they're being villified or shuffled off screen for one reason or another, like Hale and Vex were in S3. Yes, it's a woman focused show, but that woman is a bi-sexual succubus and love 'em or hate 'em, men are part and parcel of living in any world, including Faeville. I'm not interested in watching a woman-only show any more than I am in watching a man-only show (I never watched Entourage but also never hooked into Sex and the City) and I don't believe Lost Girl was meant to be so when it began but rather has moved that way particuarly since S3.
Carmen Pinzon
324. bungluna
Debate is good. It's what feeds my addiction keeps me entertained until the next episode!
Suzanne Metaxas
325. SuzyM
@Jura Renee
As I said, I'm a long time lurker and while SuzyM's (#303) tongue in cheek "so many women" (a callback to equally sarcastic/tongue in cheek "so many men" comment #76) line was what stirred me from lurkerdom to post, my observations are based on more than just this individual thread.
This is not what I said. What I said was.
303. SuzyM
Which women? There are a few of them on the show :)
Which was a question for
301. bungluna
I choose not to believe a word that comes out of that woman's mouth!
Since I wasn't sure who she was referring to. Not a sarcastic remark about men or women.
326. lonewolf
Again, damnit! I get what I want to say down, then I must hit the alt key and erase it. But the crux of it is this. There were three reasons why I liked the show, why it grabbed me. First was the cast, whoever did the casting did an excellent job. Second was the sets, no pretentiousness, nothing extavagant, I thought it was cool where Bo was living. Hell, she could have sucubused (didn't spell that right did I) herself a multi-million dollar condo. And a nice car, something like Kenzi and Bruce drove away in. I can see Bo in a Ford GT40, that's right up her alley. I know, don't hang on the car bizz. Third was, I can't remember right now, I actually have a dead spot in my brain that affects short-term memory. That's what happens when you drink a coke bottle full of gas (leaded) when you are 3yrs. old. I call it my *black hole*, it was discovered 10yrs.ago. And it just came back to me. Third, believe it or not was the sexuality, I put that third but hey, I'm a wolf, it is one of the main themes of the show. For the first season and maybe the second season it was there, but it seemed to drop off after that. God, some of it was borderline soft porn. Actually I can add a fourth reason and that is the music, it always fit well with the scene that was being played out. One song in particular was Johnny Hollows version of Nova Heart. I didn't reconize it at first, I remember hearing the Spoons a long time ago. But it's nice, a mellow song to relax to.
I am not even going to try to dissect the show. I read what some people say and I swear that some are living a vicarious life thru these characters. It seems that people are almost taking it personally. Shizzell, as Bo would say when she was talking to one of Kenzi's old street buds when she and Bo were looking for that human artist that Evony wanted her to find. I like that name Evony, it carries a beauty of it's own.
But this whole man hate thing is just boooorrrring. They should bring another man into the show, and not some guy who has a fleeting moment and then he's gone. Much Like what they did with Cayden. He was around long enough to give Dyson a love interest. I have my opinions about all that but I'm not going to get into any silly debate over it. @Kiersten, you have said most of what I would say anyway.
I like the show but they have got to get back to what made the show what is was to begin with. I doubt very much they'll be able to do that within the next two episodes. If they end the series come S4E13 it will be a complete mess. Much like another show I watched. I thought it was great. But I think the writers of that show hit a block of some kind and that was it.
So it was a grabber for me at the start. I still like it a lot, otherwise I wouldn't be on this blog. I guess that's what it's called. What I watch for are all the little clues that we get, frustrating as they may be at times.
But they do have to work in another man if not maybe two, and don't just pull him off a train out of the blue. Did I just make a rhyme?
What I would like to see is Bo being humbled big time before her friends. Make her realize how much she has taken everybody for granted. And Dyson, poor, poor wolf pup, he needs a new love interest to get over Bo.
So lets see what happens next, I haven't watched any trailers, I'll treat these next two episodes like the weather.
@Kiersten, I have been on here for a while, ever since I had to nuke my meatloaf because of this, this addiction inducing blog or whatever it's called. This all new to me, that's why I screwed up when I first got on it.
Most often I only make one mistake and I do my best to learn from it.
Good Night Everyone.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
327. Kiersten
I have been on here for a while, ever since I had to nuke my meatloaf because of this, this addiction inducing blog or whatever it's called.
@lonewolf - I'll take "addition-inducing blog" gladly. And you're doing just fine, black hole or not. I'm very glad you and the others came out of lurkdom to join the chat.

Many of us miss the show Lost Girl was in S1 & S2. It hasn't seen S1 heights in quite some time (though this season has come very close). Oh, and one man who came and stayed for a while and whose mini-arc was organic for his time on the show was Ryan. Sigh. I still miss Ryan.
328. drusilla_doll
I'll take Ryan over Perfect Ciara. :P I'm not against Dyson having some fun away from Bo. But at least make it plausible and earned. The Tamsin thing had no build up at all (even if I did like them as a team I need more development if they really want to write Dyson as moving on romantically with Tamsin - who, as far as I can see is ALSO hung up on Bo.) I'd prefer him and Kenzi having more sparkage, but I know some see that as too incestuous to bear. All I know is that Kenzi's one of the few (until Tamsin's recent actions) who's shown unwavering loyalty and appreciation for the Wolf-man.

But, right now, the show is not about ships - except for Rainbo. It's about loss, grief, betrayal, divided loyalties and destinies which perhaps shouldn't be fulfilled. The Sunshine gang have been dealt a heavy blow. I am interested to see where Bo falls after seeing Kenzi so destroyed. If she's still drinking the Rainer Koolaid and prioritising his or her special snowflake destiny over Kenzi's utter grief then she surely is not the woman we knew and loved and something needs to be done to knock sense back into her. I am pissed off enough seeing how deeply she's hurt Dyson yet again, but - as they say - all's fair in love and war. She's got her new hunk whom she was able to save and be important to.

I look forward to the day when I can root for Bo again. I hope it comes soon. At the moment it's hard to support how selfish and also oblivious she's been as to how she's treated those closest to her.
329. TheUberFan
I agree @drusilla_doll. In rewatching End of a Line, it's more clear to me that the scene with Dyson and Tamsin isn't about some sort of hidden romantic feelings that they had for each other, but grief. Loss. Betrayal. Bo.

On Tamsin's side, it's implied whereas with Dyson it's explicit. Each deal with their feelings their own ways and not necessarily the healthiest of ways but it is honest. And now with Kenzi hitting absolute bottom, it'll be fascinating to see how things play out.

Bo has, by her own actions and decisions, isolated herself from her loved ones in favor of Rainer and her destiny. And while she says Kenzi is important to her and she chooses her (and believe me I truly believe she feels this way), just like with her romantic relationships...she always finds something else that takes precedence.

So with Bo isolated, I see Tamsin and Dyson on team Kenzi as it were, should "sides" be drawn, as Bo and Rainer in their own separate little world.

Hopefully our Bo will come back because I find this Bo to be pretty intolerable.
330. drusilla_doll
@Uberfaenatic: When you think about it, lately Dyson and Tamsin have been the most privy to Bo's very real doubts and fears and the most invested (barring Kenzi) in helping to see her through them. To be so thoroughly dismissed as emotionally unimportant except as the occasional physical back up has to be galling for them both.

Kenzi has been shut out and almost neglected over the past few seasons, I trust that most viewers can agree on that. She has a point about Bo not liking to be abandoned when the shoe is on the other foot. It makes me sad that their friendship has devolved to this. At least Dyson had always included Kenzi when they'd been together. Sadly it wasn't like that with Lauren in S3 and things haven't really improved with first the lost memory of Bo and then this whole Rainer business.

Is it bad that I REALLY want Bo to choose Kenzi over everyone to reaffirm their bond?
Suzanne Metaxas
331. SuzyM
I have been angry at Bo since S2, all she ever gave was lip service about getting Dyson's love back. She talked a good fight and that was about it! Now she blames him for giving his love away??? Realy?! He DID NOT GIVE HIS LOVE AWAY, he thought he was giving his Wolf for her life, his very soul! Everything he was! Now she snipes and calls him mopey dick. I am so done with Bitchubus, she is self centered and totally disgusting. It is always all about Bo! Yes Dyson turned into a real asshole after he had his love ripped out of his heart by the feakin Norn! Did anyone feel sorry for him and try and help him? NO they didn't, all these so called friends just turned their backs on him and let him suffer alone without understanding or help. Kenzi was the only one who ever really gave a crap about what he was going through. OK :) I'm done with my rant :D
332. TheUberFan
Bo has truly made some hideous choices and everyone has suffered for it. As much as everyone wanted her and wanted to be with her at the beginning of the season, now people are finding ways to lick their wounds and find other paths away from her. Or at least that's how it feels.

And I think Hale's death can actually help Bo in a way. With and through tough love. Kenzi loves Bo...but she also hates her right now, as an extension of her own self hatred for the role she played...but also in the very real anger she's buried for so, so long against Bo for not being there when she needed her to be as far back as Season 2, but predominantly in 3 when Bo was not interested in talking to Kenzi who so desperately needed to talk.

Dyson has been used by Bo this season especially and I think this episode highlights how much he's taken her for granted. I think that she just expects his help and assumes he'll be there because he's a wolf and he's dedicated. I'm glad he lied to Bo and that Tamsin backed up her partner. She seems sick of the whole thing too.
334. TheUberFan
Oh good grief. Yes. That.

And I don't even drink so I can't blame being tipsy. ;)
Suzanne Metaxas
335. SuzyM
I noticed something when I was re-watching S4-1 tonight. When the Amphisbaena said to her I thought you would have asked for her, Kenzi at first says NO! with feeling. Made me think subconsciously Kenzi didn't want her back.
Carmen Pinzon
336. bungluna
Re- my comment about not believing a word that 'woman' sais, I was talking about EA and her long-con quote.

That is, my comment #301 was in response to the previous discussion of a twit by EA.
Suzanne Metaxas
338. SuzyM
@bungluna :) Thank you :) I totally agree with you! Sorry I didn't catch that you were talking about EA, now that statement makes perfect sense!
Maria Payne
339. Georgiana2494
Just came across this and I could not stop laughing. Watched it a few times already.
340. Bore-mudaTriangle
@Georgiana2494 This is so creative. She has a nice voice too. :)
341. nypinta
I have no problem with debating the show. I think it's safe to say that everyone here has disagreed with everyone else at least once. But when I come here I post about what I see in the episode, I respond to specific points others raise, either to agree or disagree, and include overall season thoughts about the writing. I don't generalize or lump everyone as having one take on the show. But the show does have a few problems, one of them being how it has a tendency to tell not show, plot inconsistencies, issues with consent, and the way they pay lip service to various ships and tease the audience but then walk back on all of it leaving people feeling manipulated and causing more rifts in the fandom.

This season has improved over showing and not telling but having Bo talk to people on screen; examples being Kenzi confessing her feelings about Bo having been taken and leaving her to fend for herself, and in this very episode Bo and Dyson actually talking to each other about where they stand. But they continue with plot inconsistencies which for me does damage to characters I would normally like and it’s frustrating because it’s always unnecessary. The main example would be Lauren. As I’ve said before Bo is supposed to be this person that inspires everyone else to be better. Kenzi finds stability, Trick learns to have concern for someone else besides himself, Dyson learns that everything isn’t so black and white, and Lauren discovers strength to walk away from an oppressive existence and to live for herself rather than sacrifice herself for others. Everyone else has these changes to their perspective through exposure to Bo’s refusal to follow arbitrary rules and to risk her own safety to fight for what is right. Yet for some reason the writers decide that they had to give Lauren growth via illogical back story that isn’t necessary. I’m not a fan of the “wonderLauren” tag, but the way the writers have taken any responsibility for her actions and washed it away, given her credit for things that aren’t true based on what actually happened on screen, and made all of her growth the result of just herself rather than her relationship with Bo, the name is apt.

I’ve had problems with the show and consent from the first season and even before I started watching it was something I was leery of. Yet how sincere the characters came across over rode that and I was able to set it aside, until the rape of Dyson at the end of season one and how everyone blamed him for it. It was at that moment I became not a Bo/Dyson shipper, but a Team Dyson fan. I was gob smacked how both Kenzi and Bo framed Aife’s attack as a seduction and Kenzi gave him dirty looks for daring to reference knowing Aife’s scent. Then later everyone on the show gave him crap for his reaction to being completely violated throughout the next season. So I don’t really subscribe to the idea the show has issues with man hate, but it has a serious problem with Dyson hate. From his slut shaming all throughout season one and two to the snippy comments throughout this season which seem to inspire all the OMFGodawful posts I have read on twitter, Showcase, and tumblr about Dyson. Not how he is written but about Dyson himself. Douchbag Dyson, stalker Dyson, Dybooooring, Dyson should die, why is he forcing himself on Bo, why is he letting Bo use him, there goes Dyson lying to Bo again, it’s his fault Lauren got kidnapped, he’s boring, he’s pathetic, how dare he show up and save Bo, why isn’t Lauren saving Bo, ew ew ew Tamsin and Dyson, etc. I’ve posted a few times on Showcase but I never called out the entire board for the majority of the postings against Dyson as if it was everyone who thought that way. I pointed out once, in direct response to someone’s post, that Lauren broke up with Bo so Bo doesn’t get to choose her and got 22 down votes in one half hour and got a response with multiple exclamation points about how Dyson was to blame he and Bo broke up on S1 because of a decision he made, but I couldn’t blame Lauren for her and Bo breaking up on S3 even though in that case it was Lauren that made a decision. M’kay. Guess I’m not going back there.

I personally don't have a ship on this show. I'm not a Dyson/Bo shipper. Or a Doccubus fan. Or Valkybus. When Tamsin came on last season I thought she was exactly what the show needed and I would have preferred if she had stayed one of the few people that hadn’t placed Bo on a pedestal and kept the outsider perspective to call Bo out on her crap. She might still do that, but once someone falls into that position of being in Bo’s gang then Bo has a tendency to dismiss when they disagree. So although I understand how people could ship Bo and Tamsin, I’m disappointed that Tamsin is just another in a long line of characters that just want Bo and either having her or not having her colors everything she does and her story can’t be independent of her.

@drusilla_dollI agree that how Ryan was introduced felt so much more natural than Ciara’s introduction. He, like Tamsin, was outside the gang and was allowed to react to Bo on what we see at the time on the screen between them. Ciara was a lost love. So much of her and Dyson’ relationship was based on events that we don’t get to see play out, only the result of their reunion. But I also felt like she was a result of too many cooks in the kitchen. First, her back story made her look fickle and pliant. Then she’s spoken about as if she’s warrior woman walking yet they find her in a sundress tied up with silk scarves. She was supposed to have been away from Dyson for centuries yet she knows all the local players. Her entire existence was a plot inconsistency. I swear the writers and the costume department didn’t talk to each other. Because on paper she was one thing but then they dressed her up as something completely different. I think she was supposed to be Bo’s complete opposite: rich, soft spoken, yet strong women in fae society that has succeeded by following all the rules that Bo hates. Where Bo dresses in immature outfits all in black, Ciara was in tailored dresses in light crèmes and tans. Ciara was a world traveler, where as Bo only went as far as her car could take her in a night. Ciara was knowledgeable of all things fae, while Bo is still playing catch up. But despite all of Ciara’s advantages, she is the one that is lonely and only had a few moments of true happiness with her wolf shifter mate Stephan before he was sent to his death by the king she was forced to marry. (She played by the rules. Fae law allowed for what the king did. In fact, at the time, I’m pretty sure human law did as well.) Season 2 seemed to be Bo’s time to realize what she had lost when both Dyson and Lauren were reunited with people they loved, yet both relationships were pale comparisons to what Dyson and Lauren felt for Bo. I too was disappointed that Bo never even bothered to make an attempt to get back what the Norn took. It felt completely out of character for a woman that kept going up against everyone to find out who her parents were or where she came from. She even went up against both the Light and Dark elders on behalf of a woman she just met. Yet she didn’t even get into arguments with Trick about him giving her the resources to do some research on the Norn to find a weakness or to confront the Norn herself and try to bargain for his love back only to find she had nothing the Norn wanted. I liked Kenzi’s approach and it established her as being able to solve things on her own even as a human, but Bo is supposed to be stubborn and she’s supposed to help people whether they want her too or not. Yet she did nothing for Dyson but get drunk, get sad, and get snippy with him. I didn’t need her to succeed. I just needed her to try. Yet in the very same season Bo will go on a trek to reverse a curse on Lauren’s girlfriend at the drop of a hat. It’s an inconsistency. And one that is against Dyson. As most inconsistencies on the show usually are.

Then these last few episodes happened and I'm not sure what to think. Yes, there is an element of how Bo behaves that is self-centered. She got back on that train over the objections of her best friend and once again she did it all without a plan or without considering how it would effect others. And as much as it would have been interesting to see her introduced to Rainer and see their relationship grow on screen, I think doing it this way keeps us in the POV of her friends and those around her so that we feel the same abrupt change that they do. It's a bold choice, actually. One I hope pays off by the end of the season, in the same way we all kind of hated Hale for a while when he was being Asholish to Kenzi but turned it around in the finale. But from Bo's perspective, she's had these feelings for a while and she knows that now. So for Bo this isn't abrupt. And might be why she was reluctant to recommit to Dyson even though he was available should she want to. Whether or not it's due to manipulation, we'll find out soon. I'll wait. But the hurt for her friends is real and it'll be interesting to see how she deals with that and how they deal with it too.
342. nypinta
I meant on a subconcious level Bo knows she isn't available to recommit to Dyson. Not that she knew she wasn't. Whether it's real or a manipulation remains to be seen.
345. nypinta
And I only found two typos! Go me. *sigh*

Onto the promo! Does Kenzi say, "Claim me"? But seems we're finally going to get a talk between Bo and Lauren. My guess is Lauren realizes Evony is up to something, follows her and overhears her and Trick, does research and finds out about the prophecy so she goes to warn Bo and Bo gets mad thinking she's just there to create a wedge between her and Rainer. Regardless, it'll be interesting.

And it seems that the knight shows up at Hale's funeral. That's awkward as hell.
346. Bore-mudaTriangle
@nypinta Kenzi says "Unclaim me".
347. nypinta
OK. That makes a kind of sense. Because Bo "claimed" her already, even if it wasn't official since Bo didn't even know what she was doing at the time. Yeah, Bo's losing all of her friends. :/
Kiersten Hallie Krum
348. Kiersten
Evony and Trick being in league with one another for one reason or another does explain why it was Trick's voice over the speaker when Doctor Lauren and Crystal were first taken but it was Evony/The Dark who Doctor Lauren claims were the ones who looked for her, which influened her aligning with Evony.
Nadine Robb
349. cmm
OHHH SNap! I'm loving Kenzi's Unclaim me! I am still hoping Bo is under some sort of spell, otherwise I am lost. I'm wondering if after this Kenzi's is gonna throw herself into the Shadow stuff. Be more invisible so to speak and sneak around spying on the enemy gathering information? Would make sense to me, since with Hale gone she feels that she has nothing left to live for. I must admit though part of me hopes for a reset button on this season lol.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
350. Kiersten
But if Bo "unclaims" Kenzi it means she must either leave the Fae World (which could be her plan at this point), be claimed by another Fae (Dyson? Trick?) in order to stay safe in Faevillle, or become fair game for any Fae who wants to claim or kill her. Unless they rewrite that too...

Also, she's Bruce's Master now. What would happened to him then?
351. nypinta
I wonder if Dyson will claim Kenzi. The fae are pretty particular about humans knowing their secrets and I don't think they'd just let Kenzi go 'unclaimed'. Or she arranges a deal like Lauren has with the Dark and moves in to Lauren's place. Because seriously, why haven't we seen her apartment yet? But Massimo is not long for this world. And I'm A-OK with that.
352. nypinta
Tamsin is Bruce's master. And I think his punishment period is over. But yeah, Kenzi can't just leave. Of course, she might not care at this point if she gets killed or not. Poor Kenzi. :(

Also, Trick and Evony might not be working together. He might have just gone to meet her to tell her about the Una Mens seed and how dangerous it is. Or Lauren over hears that they've been working together this whole time. I see that there's more lip locking going on. So maybe we'll get some of whatever Lauren has been up to as well.
Nadine Robb
353. cmm
Point taken about Kenzi having to leave the fae world. But maybe that's the point? Maybe she doesn't want to be apart of it anymore now that she's lost Hale. I think the Evony/Trick scene is simply the Morrigan and the Acting Ash discussing things.
354. drusilla_doll
Poor Kenzi, she looks so numb with grief in the funeral scene and WOW, way to make it all about Bo again by having the knight turn up right then to swear fealty.

Looks like Bo and Lauren have their talk. Interesting that Lauren gets to play spy and researcher - guess that's utilitising her strengths. I hope she discovers something useful in terms of making Bo see there's more going on than what's at face value.

Perhaps Trick and Evony are reluctant allies against Rainer? Or what he represents - especially if Bo Daddy/The Wanderer is still a threat.

Evony kissing Lauren again, hmmm just how much has that relationship developed, I wonder.

That was Dyson manhandling Massimo, correct? Who else is in that scene, need to rewatch the trailer a few more times.

And having Kenzi want to be unclaimed from Bo, god, that's gut wrenching. Is it because Bo is forbidding her to do something drastic? Does she want to be claimed by Dyson or Tamsin instead?

I'm both excited and apprehensive about the next episode.
355. drusilla_doll
Okay so on further watching, it looks like it's Kenzi, Bo and Dyson confronting Massimo. Let's hope he dies a horrible death.

"Between the warrior and the queen, one of the two shall die." So is Rainer the warrior who has to die? Lauren is telling her she's got to kill Rainer or be killed? I can imagine that would piss Bo off.

It would explain her reluctance to fulfill the prophecy, but then who is the unexpected source who helps change her mind? Eh, it's probably just deliberately confusing wording.

I'm thinking that Tamsin is being set up to be the hero. After all, all she needs to do is sweep in at the last minute and reclaim Rainer to take him to his rightful place in Valhalla where he was supposed to have gone centuries ago. She'd be righting a wrong.

Still, the Hellskor shoes need to come into it somewhere. I only hope it's not Lauren who dies. Please let it be Kenzi, so that Bo can show her love in going into the underworld to get her back? I don't think I could stand it being DL whom Bo risks all to save. Especially not after how she hurt Dyson so badly with her dismissive rejection.
356. Oh my
Looks like Bo is there too when Massimo's getting manhandled by Dyson. Paused and saw a woman in a black dress....
Suzanne Metaxas
357. SuzyM
It is definitely Dyson, Bo and Kenzi in the scene where Dyson grabs Massimo by his throat :) Hope he chokes the lucky charms out of him!
358. TheUberFan
"Between the warrior and the of the two shall die."

Bo is the queen (though how she is a queen is I'm sure a major plot point)...but who is the warrior?

Who has been presented as a warrior? Rainer and Tamsin. Anyone else?
360. laurenfan
To be honest, I only came here to see how many comments, if any, were posted about how Lauren should have been the one who died instead of Hale! I'm happy to see only one person made such a comment!
Kiersten Hallie Krum
362. Kiersten
Dyson's been repeatedly positioned as a warrior and a hero. whether he's "the" warrior remains to be seen.

But really, offering an already neglected Dyson up to be abused and even possibly sacrificed while Doctor Lauren is positioned to "save" the day after causing most of the trouble in the first place? That would never happen on Lost Girl, right?

Oh wait.
363. drusilla_doll
That's so last season, Kiersten. LOL.

Besides, DL has nothing to do with Bo's original abduction/Rainer/SoulTrain/The Wanderer etc. She has her own storyline this season, which - as usual - they are taking their sweet time in revealing.

But, yes, DL is positioned to offer some key information to make herself useful in Bo's epic destiny plot. It's a given, isn't it?

I can only hope Dyson and Kenzi get something decent to do in these last two eps. Right now, it's looking like they will be twiddling their thumbs while Lauren gives vital strategic info, Tamsin does something epic with her wings, Bo fights or fulfills her destiny...
364. nypinta
I recall there being speculation after that teaser video got released that people thought Lauren had died because Bo was wearing her necklace. But I've watched that video and I can't see her wearing anything. I'd like to know what happened to it, but I guess it doesn't really matter.

The warrior could be Rainer, Tamsin, or Dyson. And unless Rainer reveals himself to be horrific, I can see Bo going after any one of them.
365. TheUberFan
Bo is supposed to have to make the most difficult decision of her life in the finale. Any bets on what that could possibly be, given the little teases we know about the next episode?

Oh and didn't Tamsin look amazing in the new promo? Yes, that was sarcasm. (Tamsinpalooza my butt).
366. drusilla_doll
Kill Rainer? Her true love soul mate? The love she was destined to be with since before she was born?

/rolls eyes.
367. Bore-mudaTriangle
I was a bit sad when I didn't see Tamsin in the promo.
368. lonewolf
Having Bo unclaim Kenzi shouldn't be a problem with her still being part of the fae. When Dyson was in her room with Tamsin he told her she didn't have to be fae to live amongst them. That there was a way, and he would show her when she was ready. If there is any fae that she should be wary of is Val. That's my take on it anyway.
Also, I believe that I may have touched upon a nerve with boring and wolf pup comments. They were taken out of context, I went on showcase and facebook that's all I read was go doccubus. I was never to keen on the idea. As for people saying kill Dyson, that is a display of man hate if ever there is one. So my apologizes if I have upset anyone.
I have wondered about how the dark fae found Lauren. When she was waitressing that fae that was there ordered liver? Did he know he would have such a deadly reaction to liver. Perhaps he was sent there for just that reason. A test to see if they had finally found her. I'm sure when the leader of the dark fae, Evony, tells you to do something you do it. Even if it means your life. Lucky for him it was her, I wonder how many may have gone before him. For me it seems to make sense unless I've missed something.
I have read all the comments on here about the teaser on youtube. I refuse to watch it. I'll live with the suspense. But I will keep a sock nearby in case I have to throw it at the telly. Like I did when Rainer showed up at the Dal. Once again my apologizes.
369. nypinta
Actually, Lauren being with the Dark the way she is it might her the perfect one for Bo to call and ask her to do some recon now that Rainer is being rewritten into the books. She's not exactly on speaking terms with Trick and I don't think she'd trust anything he told her about him anyhow.

Tamsin not being in the promo doesn't mean she won't be in the episode. Her scenes might just have been too spoiler-y to put in there. If Bo's difficult decision is as hard as they are selling it, I think it's that she is going to have to chose who to save or go after. So it might be that a few people die and Bo has to decide who to save.
370. TheUberFan
I should have had a sock to throw at my screen. It'd prolong the life of it as opposed to actually throwing my computer across the room, which sadly shortens the life of it.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
371. Kiersten
@lonewolf - dont worry about it. you spurred a good discussion. glad you're out of lurkdom
372. nypinta
@lonewolf I was never upset by any of your posts. It's possible to find Dyson boring. In my post (if that is what you were responding to) I mentioned all of the things I've seen said about Dyson online that most of the time are stand alone comments. Someone on tumblr will take the time to just post, "Dyson should just die. He's so boring" with out any thing else. No context. Nothing about why they don't like him. Not everyone has to like his character. And on here when someone doesn't they always have a specific scene or moment that they point to that didn't strike their fancy. Which is all cool. It's more on twitter and tumblr where people have the most tendency to just lob insults at the character. I even once saw someone tweet to KHR and Emily Andras to stop showing Dyson naked because he is "disgusting." Who does that? I would never make such a comment about ZP or RS. I mean, they aren't my type but I'm also not blind. They're freaking gorgeous.

Other options for Kenzi's plea to Bo. She might need to be unclaimed to do something Bo doesn't want her to do. She might see it as just punishment for getting Hale killed. It could be she needs to get away from Bo. (But if that were the case I think Kenzi could just leave. Bo would never make her stay if she didn't want to.)
Carmen Pinzon
373. bungluna
Georgiana2494 - thanks for that link. Very funny!

I've seen personal attacks on all the cast. From "that actress playing Bo isn't attractive," to "KHR is disgusting," there are always people out there who feel entitled to give their opinion in the most acerbic way posible. Bet that, if we got a hold of a pic of them, they would fall far short of their own 'ideal'!
374. nypinta
I've seen people make the same comment about Anna Silk too, but I see them on IMDB the most. I haven't seen anyone tweet it at her though. This person, and it was I'll admit an extreme case, went out of their way to say it to both KHR and Emily Andras. That was the part that threw me the most.

Looks to me like most of the episode happens in one day, since everyone is wearing what they wore to Hale's funeral when confronting Massimo. And in both of her snippets Lauren is in the tan jacket. It's only Bo who gets a wardrobe change and it probably happens after the funeral when she goes home and does that spell thing with the Wanderer card. I wonder if it's to fully release him from whatever Trick did to erase him from history. But that means that after this they only get one more episode to finish everything. I don't think we're getting any answers on who Bo's father is. And if another death happens that makes Bo go back into the underworld it has to be this episode so she'll go in the finale, I think. Plus there is still whatever Lauren is working on to get back too. And what does being a Shadow Theif actually mean?! I have a feeling that Hale's family will not be at whatever service Kenzi is at. I just can't see them sharing space with Kenzi at all because Hale didn't change their minds at all about humans. Val might have backed Hale up by helping with the Garuda, but I can't see that changing her mind at all either and she was just as hateful as Hale's father.
375. TheUberFan
So that page Lauren is reading with the pin light... I was curious as to what it said. Here's a snapshot:

Here's what I see:

Bi-healde the daemon beest of Evil pur,
Gast of fanged toothe and horned forheedis,
Nefor to be traysted,
Hem they call Rainer,
Whan a thousynde yeeris schal be endid,
He schall be ,
To wreken torment bionde comparisonn,
And bi-traeye the Fay.

My rough translation from what I see: "Behold the demon beast of pure evil, a fanged tooth ghost with a horned forehead, never to be trusted. Him they call Rainer. When a thousand years shall be ended, he shall be , to wreak torment beyond comparison, and betray the Fae"
376. TheGardner
So cool promo, definitely got me excited for the next episode.

It looks like maybe Bo and Lauren will talk. I hope Lauren tells Bo to stick it. Very curious about Kenzi asking to be unclaimed. I doubt that Dyson is the 'warrior', I'm pretty sure that is Rainer. What's up with Trick and the Morrigan? And why is Evony locking lips with Lauren, are TPTB really going there with them? No visual on Tammers, so I wonder what her role will be in all of this.

We will have to wait and see I guess...
Carmen Pinzon
377. bungluna
If Rainer is not going to be in this episode, then what? Did they hire the actor for just the two episodes that've already played?
378. TheUberFan
@bungluna... he is in the episode. He's in the promo pics and the promo video.

But now that I know that he's evil, I have to assume his days are numbered. ;)
379. Bore-mudaTriangle
@bungluna He is in the next episode. He was standing next to Bo when she was burning the Wanderer card. And the promo pictures show Rainer as well.
380. TheUberFan
My guess is that Lauren goes to warn Bo that Rainer is a pure evil demon ghost of who will wreak torment and betray the fae and Bo thinks she's just jealous of him/doesn't really understand him like she does and turns it into an opportunity to wax on about their past relationship.
381. TheGardner
@Uberfae - With this version of Bo, I won't be jumping in line to bet against you. *sigh

I really hope Lauren gives it to her, someone needs to ASAP.
382. drusilla_doll
@TG I totally agree with you. Which is saying something. ;)
384. nypinta
With that prophecy and Tamsin's comments about evil, I think Rainer might be both. What Tamsin saw might be his true face and he is in fact playing Bo. Trick might not have realized just how evil Rainer was because he kind of was at the time too. I think that makes Tamsin the warrior. Dyson has made his position clear and if Rainer is the demon ghost thing he can't be the warrior too.

As for Lauren and Bo, honestly, despite how annoyed the audience might be with Bo, Lauren doesn't have much of a right to get in Bo's face either. Maybe right isn't the correct word. Much cause...? When Bo disappeared, so did Lauren. So Lauren wasn't there while Bo was gone to really feel her absence like everyone else. Then when she came back she made it clear she wasn't going to get back with Bo, because it wasn't right for her. Valid choice. So she was only around during a few good times with ice cream and drunk chumby punch and going up against the Una Mens to help save Dyson. Bo might not be happy about her and Lauren's break up but she sucked it up for the team, but now all of a sudden she's happy (brainwashed) and the one who broke her heart is trying to tell her she's making a mistake with her new love (evil two faced lying liar pants). Yeah... Bo's going to blast her with both barrels. Because this has been stewing in the back of her mind for a while, I'm sure. Lauren might have had valid reasons for breaking things off, but from Bo's perspective, Lauren broke a promise. She's been pushing Bo for something exclusive for a while and they went through some pretty shitty times to finally get together and she said she'd do whatever it took to help Bo not become underfae (which was clearly a strong possibility if long lived fae like Trick, Stella, & Tamsin were that freaked out about it) and once all of that was finally done, she leaves. Was Bo at fault for not really hearing Lauren or noticing her distress? Sure. But in Bo's defense, Lauren knew what Bo was like when she got involved. She knew she stuck her nose in other people's business and stirred things up. So, if I were Bo, I'd be angry and feel betrayed too. It's just how the heart works. And as Bo is someone that Can't Stand someone telling her what to do, Lauren showing up with a book saying her new boyfriend is evil incarnate is not going to sit well. But maybe Lauren will get some doubt in her mind and that will effect what Bo chooses later.
385. JayCruz61
@TheGardener you're spot on. Honestly, I'm over the whole Lauren, Bo & Dyson fiasco. The one character that touches me dearly is Kensi and all that she will have to overcome emotionally as a result of Hale being killed. I am courious though as to who Dyson is grabbing. It looks like Massimo, so perhaps, the Kenster's Dy-guy (aka Dyson) comes to her rescue. As for Lauren, damn she is being worked on big time by the Morrigan. I'm liking this to be honest. I'm a drama junky the more mix up the better, at least for me. I am always of the opinion where writers of any drama/fantasy show are concerned, that if I am not on an emotional rollercoaster to which I am feeling many sad one minute and joy the next, then they are not doing their jobs. inconsistencies and all.
Nadine Robb
386. cmm
@Nypinta I whole heartendly agree with you about Lauren. I do think the book is what causes Bo to doubt her love for Rainer. I also think it may be a plethora of other things too. For example, Kenzi. Last episode she said she would always choose her and refused to drain her to save Hale. I think that added to what Dyson said, added to as you've suggested the book that Lauren brings her, might be what finally makes her stop and listen.

However, if that's the case that would imply she's not under some kind of control. That she's just being an ass. I really hope more of the loose ends this season has are tied up in the next episode though, because if they're not Lost Girl might loose a lot of fans.
387. JaneDoe
i've seen quite a few people suggest it will not be tamsin who dies just because she has already died, even when the leaked promo came out for the end of the season a lot of people said this. all i have to say is so what? tamsin has died, dyson has died, that does not mean they are not ever going to die again. it would be a bit repetitive but if the writers have a story that they want to go with, i don't think they will say "well they already died they shouldn't die again!" to me at the moment, what makes the most sense is tamsin being the warrior. this show hasnt made a lot of sense lately so who knows. but she has been tied into the wanderer storyline ever since the beginning, valkyries are warriors, and there has been some hints, maybe, as to her being the one. that her soul may be damned to hell (levi is in fae hell), that she is on her last life, that if rainer is bad she will indeed kill him, opposed to dyson saying he won't help.

but really at this point anyone could die. we know bo is going to go back to levi so bo's chi will not save this person from death. and making the assumption bo will make a deal with levi or play another riddle game, she could save anyone from death that way if she wins.
388. JaneDoe
also if tamsin were to never die again in the series what is the point in mentioning it is her last life? they couldve just made it so she was reborn without the last life bit if it wasnt ever going to come into play.
390. nypinta
Yeah, Massimo mentioning that at the beginning of the season was a giant red flag. Then Levi telling Bo she'd see her soon. Then they kill Hale so we all think no one else is going to die, because would they really kill two people?!? Of course they would. Because we're not supposed to be expecting it now. They might even kill two more people and Bo can only save one. NOW that would be unexpected. Well. Except that I just said it.
391. Darthfaeder
@JaneDoe Rachel S. will be back for season 5. Jay F. basically said so when they were at the London Con last year. Jay mentioned that he wanted to play around more with Tamsin's backstory, and that was after season 4 had already wrapped up filming. I suppose technically they could have Tamsin die and Bo could resurrect her, but Rachel is coming back for season 5, if there is a season 5.
392. JaneDoe
@Darkfaeder yes i know she is. i was just stating my opinions on a lot of people saying tamsin will not die simply because she has already died. anyone of the main cast who dies will most likely come back.
393. Bore-mudaTriangle
Well the fact that JF let that slip, about Tamsin being brought back for season 5, makes me think maybe Tamsin doesn't die? Because I would kind of assume, if someone did die, it would be a cliffhanger at the end of the season, where in the next season is when they are brought back. So would JF really let that slip if he knew that she was the one who was going to die? Because it makes it obvious that she will be brought back in the next season and the fans won't really be "hit hard" with it. Yet, EA said something about Rainer in the next season, which, we know he's evil and *should* die in end of the season big battle, so maybe not.

All this theory shit will be the death of me.
394. Bore-mudaTriangle
Oh and the above post is assuming that Bo goes to Levi to bring them back. Just thought I'd clarify. ;P
395. TheUberFan
Looking back to Groundhog Fae and the pertinent parts about the Wanderer:

In a previous life, I hunted fae fugitives for a price. I was a valkyrie. I was the best. And I was greedy. One look into his eyes and I knew. I've never really met true evil. Not until then. I told myself I was powerless to refuse this beast so I accepted his bounty to find a woman. I took comfort that the girl he described couldn't possibly exist. Eyes both brown and blue. Virtuous yet lustful. Neither dark nor light...yet both.

The Wanderer...that evil that you met, could he be my father?
That thing would have done anything to claim his ideal mate. Even if it meant creating her himself.
Then we met Rainer and people saw him as a young hottie and for some reason ...that meant he must not be evil. Which I find fascinating.

At any rate, now we know per the prophecy Lauren uncovers, that Rainer is evil. I think the wording is interesting, especially in conjunction with how Tamsin described her boss:

"Behold the demon beast of pure evil, a fanged tooth ghost with a horned forehead, never to be trusted. Him they call Rainer. When a thousand years shall be ended, he shall be , to wreak torment beyond comparison, and betray the Fae"

Tamsin saw a "thing". A "monster". Perhaps what she saw was the Wanderer's true self as opposed to the hottie veneer Trick recognized but Tamsin did not.

Another point. Since the book is calling Rainer out as a demon, fanged toothed/horned beast ghost very specifically by name, I think we can infer that the "Warrior" is another individual entirely.

Lastly...Tamsin doesn't say when she was hired, other than "previous life." We now know that Rainer was cursed 1000 years ago (directly after the blood laws were signed and the rebels challenged Trick).

So did Tamsin meet the Wanderer demon before that? She looked vibrant in the Groundhog Fae memories as opposed to near death as she was in her Destiny's Child memories. If she did meet him before he was cursed, what did he go by? Because he wasn't the Wanderer until Trick cursed him. If it was afterward, how did he make himself manifest?

We do know that the Wanderer can play parlor from the sky, mirages/illusions...blowing up the Dal... Was he able to leave his realm short term to find Tamsin and hire her?
Carmen Pinzon
396. bungluna
So many questions, so little time! I'm almost done with my longjohns! As for my mental sanity, I've been practicing my mantra: "cliff hangers will not kill you, cliff hangers will not kill you..."
397. TheUberFan
"... unless you lose your grip and fall..."

(me not being helpful) ;)
398. stacymd2
Hi all! Did you guys enjoy the big game as much as I did? The touch downs, the wagging tails, the kitten half time show, Michelle Obama's touchdown celebration. I've watched Animal Planet's Puppy Bowl for 6 years now and have never been disappointed. Cute Puppies 4 The Win!

@UberFae: You bring up some good points. Rainer, the Wanderer, and Bo's father the same person? Two different people? Three?

Even though Season four has plot holes the size of Michigan Stadium it is still really good. Not great like Seasons one and two, but much improved. There have been so many great comments in this season's recaps. Every new episode--with the exception of the awful, eyeroll worthy 405 epi with Wonder Lauren's slow mo walk--has me hotly anticipating the next episode.

I've been busy with work and home, but I have been reading the comments. 411 was great all around--acting, costumes, pacing. I had nothing new to add so I didn't comment.

Brief thoughts:

I didn't hate the Tamsin/Dyson kiss like I thought I would when it was first shown in the promo. I've wanted Dyson to get under another woman for a while because I think EA uses the "wolves mate for life thing" to keep Team Badass members watching while she puts Bo with everyone else. I like that Dyson mates for life and Bo should be honored to have a man who is willing to fight by her side, do anything for her and her friends (plus ex-girlfriend), isn't judgemental, is trustworthy & loyal.

My aunt and uncle just celebrated 3o years of "mating for life". My grand aunt and uncle (who are in their 90s) will celebrate 60 years of marriage this year. My boss and her husband have over 25 years together. My uncle and his partner (they are not "allowed" to be married) is also going on 20 years mate for live. There is nothing wrong with Dyson choosing to commit to anyone for his life nor is there shame in loving someone more than they love you.

Bo has never kicked Dyson out of her life, even when she was with Lauren. Dyson losing the mate for life thing is a lazy writers' retcon. The loss of Dyson's "wolves mate for live" would not change anything in terms of Lauren/Bo OR Tamsin/Bo.

If Dyson and Tamsin have an affair then that would mean more Tamsin and shirtless Dyson on our screens. They would be much hotter than S3's glamor shots lighted, wet noodle that was B/L.

Also, the "mate for life" thing doe not hold Dyson's development back. Until this season Kenzi's entire life revolved around Bo. Until the "break" Lauren's life revolved around Bo. Lauren choose to stay in servitude when Dyson told her to run because of Bo. Trick has been looking for and over Bo for years. Tamsin has been searching for Bo for over 1000 years. Bo's vag is the Sun that Dyson, Lauren, Kenzi and Tamsin orbit. Even Vex is being sucked in.

Dyson is still a cop, works with Kenzi and is a friend to Hale, Tamsin and Lauren. Clearly he has no problem having sex with other women. The wolves "mate for life thing" has not impacted this or held him back so I don't understand why the show chose to say that Dyson's love has turned him into a "prisioner of his own making" other than to cater to Doccubus -- which EA does a lot. That fandom hates Dyson for who he is and his love for Bo. B/L broke up because of unhappiness within thier relationship. B/T didn't get together because Bo wasn't feeling Tamsin in that way. Dyson's "wolves mate for life" thing had nothing to do with it.

I disagree with who ever stated that Hale's storyline didn't have any where else to go. With Hale/Kenzi heating up it would have been great to see Kenzi torn between adventures with Bo versus creating a life with her husband. TPTB should have explored how Hale's anti-human family reacts to H/K. What does Hale want to do now with his life since Lauren ruined everything he was doing as Ash. Did he really want to go back to the cop shop? EA is no Joss Whedon. Whedon would have built up K/H's relationship & D/H's bromance then stuck a knife in it.

The mermaid episode would have been infinitely better if the original Sunshine Gang had worked the case while Wonder Lauren was shown working on whatever it is she is working on in her Dark Fae Lab. Now, whatever Lauren is working on will seem like a deus ex machina (which it will be).

Lost Girl has thrown in "man hating" (disliking? cliches?) lines this season. It is not wrong for us to point it out or discuss it. Dao Ming's all men lie sticks out at me at the moment...What about Lauren?

Also, way back in S1 (?), Bo is telling Kenzi how Dyson is acting jealous becasue of Lauren even though they are not exclusive. Kenzi say, "he has testes, dudes tend to get irrationally territorial, it's a ball thing." When Bo became jealous of Ciara (and now Evony) is it an ovaries thing?

Most of the "man hate" comes from Doccubus. It's not exclusive to Dyson because they hate Ryan, Trick and even Hale at times.

The 412 promo is very interesting. I can't wait to see Massimo get what is comming to him.

Spec: I think Massimo took the Una Mens seed. He will give it to Evony. Evony will betray Trick, or try to. Wonder Lauren will save Bo, the Fae and universe.
399. stacymd2
One more thing that really stuck out to me this epi...(I will drop this topic since you all must be sick of it.)

This is in regard to the conversation in the last recap about perception of female actions vs. male. Sexual aggression vs. not. Context and Intent, etc. (i.e. Tamsin invades Bo's rubber ducky time) I'm trying to frame that conversation with the "man-hating" thing you were discussing.

After 402, there was an uproar about Dyson holding Selene down by her neck and about his "fight" with Clio where he supposedly cause her tooth to be knocked out. Keep in mind that Selene is a rapist who put D-bag Eddy in a coma and used his body sexually, creating a roomfull of beautician daughters. Clio attacked Eddy/Dyson and clearly was not missing any teeth when she got on the train tracks nor in the next episode.

There was a recap on and numerous comments on other sites of how wrong Dyson was and that Lost Girl was promoting misogyny, abuse of women, etc.

To my knowledge, there has been no uproar about Bo stabing a defeated The Keeper as she crawled to get away.

In this episode, Acacia slams down the blood drinker guy (who is weaponless and physically weaker than her because he did not overpower her at any point). The Creepy Blood Drinker Guy said sexual things just like Selene did when Dyson held her down. To my knowledge, there has been no uproar about Acacia's actions. The only comment was on how badass was LH. (super badass!)

I find the hypocrisy striking. In real life, there will always be one set of rules for women vs. men, but I find in Lost Girl's case people who dislike Dyson don't take context or the supposed message of the show into consideration. Is this man-hate? Dyson hate? A little of both?
400. TheUberFan
I'd say a little of both.

Dyson is a threat to their preferred romantic scenario, and he is a dude so therefore he's a mysogynist/patriarchal oppressionist because he has a wang.

It's entirely unfair.

And I was truly stunned by how ruthless Bo was with the Una Mens. That had to be red flag.
Nusi Dekker
401. NusiD
Just dropping in to say that I saw a trailer tonight for that new Robocop movie that's coming out and KC Collins was prominently in it. He is not one of the top billed actors (there are bigger names in the top creds) but he seems to have a large role in it.

I have been reading the comments with interest but not commenting myself as my sources of Canadian LG episodes have been been cut off by Showcase. ::sigh:: Carry on!
402. TheUberFan
@NusiD...I can give you a new source if you'd like. I have several. ;)
Carmen Pinzon
403. bungluna
I hadn't thought about the way Bo went after the Una Mens, but now it does highlight how out of character her actions were. She activelly went afte them and killed them all. I don't think she's ever done that, not even with the Garuda's henchmen.
404. lonewolf
@NusiD and @UberFaenatic, There is a site that you can go to that will allow you to watch the Canadian broadcast of LG the day after it airs on Showcase. It's called project free tv. This is of course, if you live here in the states like me. That is why I occasionally submit a comment (as long as I don't piss anybody off lol) for each of the Canadian episodes. Commercial free, also. There are also hundreds of tv shows from past and present, movies also. DL and I have something in common. We are both Trekkies. I have watched all the Star Wars and Star Trek movies. I use this site because I don't have cable or satellite (screw them both). If you'd like I can give you the low down on what to do. First, if you do not have "ad block plus" downloaded for whichever browser you use, do it. It makess it easier to navigate the site. There are no viruses to worry about at all. I have used this site for 2 years now without a problem. Downloading adblock plus will also take unwanted ads of other sites as well. @bungluna, I too, thought that Bo's slaughter of the una mens was vicious, It was not her usual self. Plus after she took out the una mens she had a look of doubt, wondering if what she did was right. Then again on the bed she tells him "I want to trust you." That guy who/whatever he is, is one smooth talker. It almost seems like all he has to do is just grab her hand or put a hand on her shoulder and that doubt seemed to go away. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I have only read these last from @ NusiD, @UberFaenatic and @bungluna. I'm just going to sit on my hands and wait in suspense til I watch the show. So far I haven't read any comments from anyone talking about this upcoming episode. But I will come back on to see if anyone wants to get on that site I mentioned. Now I have to go dig my car out and make room for the plow truck so he doesn't bury me in even worse than I already am.
405. nypinta
@stacymd2 I mentioned that they did't really have anywhere to go with Hale and I still think that, given the restrictions of this show. Was there story they could tell with him (as a fae noble) and Kenzi (human and not stationed even a little bit) getting together? Sure. But would they be able to tell it well with just a scene here or there spread out over another 13 episodes? It wouldn't do either Hale or Kenzi and their trials any justice. Even this year, they decided to pair them up (finally) (although I still miss Nate) but what of them did we really get? Three scenes. Plus, as I said, once he quit as Ash, I thought his character moved backwards. Since near the beginning of the season Hale has spouted off about the old guard and the fae being trapped by their attitudes and his desire to drag them into a new way of thinking and he gets himself into a position where he could enact change but gives it up because Evony pulled a stunt? I didn't realize Hale was such a quitter. It annoyed me that he walked away from it, especially at a time that the fae (especially the Light) were the most vulnerable. It didn't feel like something Hale would do and watching him just reduced again to Dyson's partner and sidekick bugged me. If I were KC Collins I would have asked to be killed off at that point. (Not saying he did. I don't know if it was a decision solely by the writers or was mutual or what.)

And I also didn't like the Dyson mates for life thing that they added in S2. I thought that was lazy, actually. And a bit cynical because it seemed to show up because the writers didn't think the audience would understand what a sacrifce Dyson originaly made. And I don't find it all that romantic that Dyson is Bo's 'mate for life' not because he makes that choice every day but because of some fae installed inability to decide not to be. They might as well have made him one of Bo's thralls and be done with it. He can still love Bo. Lauren does, but she doesn't have some psychological attatchment that cannot be broken. It makes Dyson's feelings for Bo an obligation and not a choice. And that does hold him in place. His growth with other characters is seperate and has nothing to do with that one caveat but would have happened regardless. There is nothing in the story that would have changed had the writers skipped the mate for life crap, other than giving Dyson the option of moving on and if hasn't chosen to until now it would be his loyalty and admiration of Bo that keeps him by her side, not biology. Who would you rather have at your side? Someone who wants to be there or someone that can't move on from you? I know who I'd chose.
Suzanne Metaxas
406. SuzyM
@nypinta Dyson's mate for life came at the end of S1 in episode 12 Dis Members. I never took Dyson's mate for life as a biological thing but a choice made by him. It is the same as some one who doesn't believe in divorce. I myself thought long and hard before I committed to my husband because I don't believe marriage should be entered into lightly. I have always believed he could have moved on after he got his love back but it was his choice not to because he still loves Bo and is willing to wait until she settles her life and can make a reasonable decision of who she wants to spend the rest of her life with. I don't find his willingness to wait a weakness but a strength. He loves her enough to wait a little longer until her life settles to where she can make a conscious well thought out decision.
407. TheUberFan
I agree about disliking Dyson's 'wolves mate for life' thing for the same reasons @nypinta.

I think what we've seen is that as a result of knowing this about Dyson, Bo takes him and his feelings and his involvement in her life for granted. Of course he'll always wait in the wings for me, he doesn't have a choice in the matter.

Also, I don't want Dyson to mope and lose out on love just because Bo might be moving on to different people and experiences. If he can find happiness outside of Bo, that'd probably be better and give him the chance to have storylines that aren't fully Bo-centric.
Nadine Robb
408. cmm
@Nypinta Hale never quit being Ash he was forced out after Evony's little stunt. So to me he never went backwards. They just didn't write anything new for him. I agree with Stacymd2 they had tons of material left they just didn't use it.
409. Darthfaeder
@Boremude T. yes Jay did say that he wanted to do more with Tamsin's backstory in season 5 heard it with my own ears. You can go to the London Con 2013 on Youtube and check it out if you want. I think he said it when Jay and KS, RS, and EV where doing a sit down interview off in a back room. As far as EA saying that Rainer will last into season 5, Uggggg that is just stupid. They have been playing this Wanderer Arc for a season and a half now. Jeez lets wrap it up already.
As far as why Jay would mention Tamsin's backstory well I just think he wasn't thinking. He seems really intent with fleshing out more of her backstory and just wanted to tell everyone. I don't think he was even thinking about how season 4 ended when he said it. I think that tough decision that Bo is going to have to make is to let someone she loves very much die. That doesn't mean that she can't bring them back
whether it be Dyson, Lauren, Tamsin, or Rainer. Yes I think it is possible that season 5 ends with a death as a cliffhanger. How stupid though would it be to have Tamsin die again, and have to rehire the two actresses that played 8 year old Tamsin and 15 year old Tamsin for
a second time in the span of 1 year/season. No if Tamsin dies she won't be going through a rebirth. She'll be resurrected by Bo if they intend to keep Tamsin on the show which I know they are. I heard someone say that both Jay and EA very much want Tamsin to be around for along time on the show. Sorry if that disappoints some people but ya know when you become a popular character they will want to keep you around, and Tamsin definately has become very popular. After all that is what the did with Lauren. She wasn't suppose to be that big of a character but she became popular so they integrated her more into the storylines.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
410. Kiersten
After all that is what the did with Lauren. She wasn't suppose to be that big of a character but she became popular so they integrated her more into the storylines.
Yeah and look how awful that turned out for the show. No clear character path, constant retcons, plot irregularities, fanwanking, vicious fan bullying, dropped ratings. I don't think that's all a mark in favor of keeping Tamsin because of her popularity.

That said, I like Tamsin a lot and would not be unhappy to have her stay in S5. I am not, however, a big fan of constantly adding new characters or expanding recurring characters role's at the expense of those who have been in the show from the beginning. We've already seen that detrimental effect on the downward spiral of Hale's story and presence (outside real-world factors notwithstanding), which now has led to the character's death and the actor leaving the show. If that's the cost of keeping Tamsin, it's too high.

I will say this - JF lies. EA lies. The entire cast has been coached in misdirection for interviews etc in order to avoid spoilers. That doesn't mean he was lying in London about wanting to work more with Tamsin's backstory in S5 but it also doesnt automatically mean she'll be back in the same capacity as she is now. We've already seen she has a rich past with Trick and Rainer and The Wanderer. It's plausible if Rainer is back in S5 (and I desperately pray that was EA deliberately baited the fan base with those hints because surely she knows that nobody at all on any side of the divide wants him to stay and keeping him is essentially committing hare kare with her show) then the explorations of Tamsin's back story can occur in their flashbacks.

I'm not saying this will happen, merely that it is one explanation for JF's comments in London. We've all learned the hard way not to trust or take at face value what JF and EA say at cons and in interviews.
412. Bore-mudaTriangle
@Darkfaeder Yeah, I know JF said it. And I agree that it would be a bit stupid to have her die again at the end of another season, but I also don't think the writers care about that. It was said Valkyries serve, die and are reborn. So if she wasn't on her last life, they could have her dying all the time and coming back (though that would be really horrible to the story/character/show in any case). But as it was said, why mention Tamsin is on her last life if she were to never die again in the series? Whether it be permanent or not, it will most likely happen. And as you said, if she did die and was brought back, I think it will be her either being brought back by Bo or Levi can bring her back, grown up form? Don't know the power Levi holds so we can't be sure what she can do, but to bring back those 2 actresses and have the saaame playout as the beginning of this season, would be boring.

@Kiersten I agree that keeping Lauren as a regular caused a lot of consequences, especially the "vicious fan bulling." Everyone knows that you cannot post something bad related to Lauren unless you want to be attacked by 50 people. But I don't think they killed Hale off to keep Tamsin as a regular. She took his place when he became Ash, but they could have easily placed Hale in with the gang. Tamsin isn't even a detective this season (no one works anymore, I guess) so they could have put him as Dyson's partner again. They had reasons for Hale being killed off, but I don't think it was to keep Tamsin.

Yeah, JF and EA can and will mislead. We just have to watch to be sure on what happens. To me, anyone can die and anyone can come back. No one is off limits.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
413. Kiersten
I absolutely do not think Hale was killed off specifically to keep Tamsin as a regular. Sorry if I gave that impression. I do think that having added people due to fan popularity as opposed to following what was the original plan for their character, like they first did with Doctor Lauren and then did for S4 with Tamsin (who I think was not originally meant to survive the cliff dive), takes opportunity away from other characters. While not a direct result or connection, it definitely played a part in the overall scheme of things, as does K.C. Collins' other projects like Saving Hope, whose scheduling conflict kept him out of a lot of S3. That probably more than anything opened up the line of thought of "what to do with do now with Hale?" that at some point led to "we kill him off because of X". But having too many characters to serve, two of whom outstayed their original structure due to fan popularity, also played a part one way or another.
Susan White
414. whiskeywhite
Oh man, I definitely cannot keep up. I keep putting off reading and posting because there's too much; then I just get further and further behind. But can I quit ya? No way.

I know I'm a latecomer to this discussion, but I just have to say: Please don't retreat into lurkdom @Jura Renee. I was SO impressed with your excellently developed arguments. You're like a breath of fresh air. Please continue.

I have been bothered by the "man hate" and related comments for a long time but decided not to take them on. You did your research -- good for you -- and caught me being conciliatory, not agreeing. We fence sitters get caught, sooner or later.

I don't think that they killed off Hale because he was a man. @Jura Renee's expendable argument convinces me totally as to why it was him in particular. But I do think, however, it is exceptionally regrettable that they have killed off the last major black character.

Did they kill him because he was black? No. Do they care that all of their main characters, and all of their secondary characters, are now white? Apparently not. We have an occasional character who is black, or for that matter any variety of person of colour, drop in from time to time. Most recently we had Laveau's brief appearance and quick demise.

Such a change from Season 1 and 2. Many major black characters -- the first Ash, Hale's father and sister, the emissary from the old country, Audrey (I miss Audrey), etc. All killed off or disappeared. Then drought (snowstorm?) until the return of some extras and minor characters of colour in late season 3.

There's actually a recognized pattern (or theory of a pattern) in TV and movies of "the black character always gets killed off first". Read about it here. The first major character to be killed off in LG was, in fact, the first Ash.
Susan White
415. whiskeywhite
Speaking of Laveau, terrible accent. If she was supposed to be based on
the real person, Marie Laveau of New Orleans in the early 1800s, then
she should probably have had a French accent, since Marie Laveau was a
Creole whose husband was from Haiti (thus she must have spoken at least
enough French to communicate with him).
416. nypinta
@SuzyM "Dyson's mate for life came at the end of S1 in episode 12 Dis Members. I never took Dyson's mate for life as a biological thing but a choice made by him. It is the same as some one who doesn't believe in divorce. I myself thought long and hard before I committed to my husband because I don't believe marriage should be entered into lightly. I have always believed he could have moved on after he got his love back but it was his choice not to because he still loves Bo and is willing to wait until she settles her life and can make a reasonable decision of who she wants to spend the rest of her life with. I don't find his willingness to wait a weakness but a strength. He loves her enough to wait a little longer until her life settles to where she can make a conscious well thought out decision."

I'm well aware that Dyson made the "wolf mates for life" quip in Dis-members, and maybe at that time it was his choice, but the show then took that and changed it to a physical thing when they had the Norn taunt him and she claimed that by her taking his love for Bo that he wouldn't be able to love anyone else, because wolves only get one love. So they basically cheapened it. Dyson and Bo are not married. She never made a commitment to him. It's not the same, even if he chose to love her. He still can love her if he wants, that's not my problem. It's the fact that the show took what was a choice, and then a sacrifice, and turned it into this ridiculous tether that keeps him tied to Bo regardless of what Dyson might want. It's not a weakness on his part. It's a lame weakness on the writers part to have an excuse for him to always be an option in the triangle. The thing that a lot of people forget is Dyson went back to the Norn because he wanted to love Ciara. If when he visited the Norn and she had taken his wolf instead but Bo decided not to be with him anymore because she couldn't get over him keeping the truth from her about her mother and he was reunited with Ciara and wanted to move one but we found out he couldn't would it still be as romantic that he was tethered to Bo whether he liked it or not? I don't think so.
417. TheUberFan
@Kiersten...did you see the picture above of the page Lauren is reading?

Also, I hope Tamsin doesn't die die. They've already given an indication of a couple of means for her to be resurrected if she is the one to bite the dust but I'd be bummed if they truly killed her off.
418. nypinta
@cmm "Hale never quit being Ash he was forced out after Evony's little stunt."

And why is a Dark invoking a vote about a Light? Rule number 1 of the fae is the Dark and Light don't get involved in each other's affairs. If he wanted, he could have fought. He implied he was backing off willingly. And it was a step backwards. He went back to being Dyson's partner at the cop shop and acting as his sidekick to be ordered off stage when it was necessary. He got one scene with a fae of the week, two scenes with Kenzi before the marriage proposal, and one scene with Bo because he knew about Yule Fool's. He was being wasted and as I said the show doesn't have time (or it doesn't find time) for real compelling stories for reccuring characters. They could have. I'm just saying they wouldn't. And as much as I appreciated Hale, having him around but not giving more interesting things feels mean.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
419. Kiersten
@UberFaenatic - I did, yeah. Digging the use of Old English there. The writers had a blast with that for sure.
420. TheUberFan
@Kiersten... one of the Doccubus fans I'm friends with on Twitter brought it to the attention of EA that we fans were able to screengrab, isolate and enhance the text to make it legible and translate ... and a part of me was going DANG! Now they know we know how obses...err..dedicated we are and maybe next year they'll be more cautious in their promos! The other part is glad they know because now maybe they'll plant more easter eggs. :D

EA gave mad props to their art department:

@emtothea :

@CarolynRodham @creativeg33k @LostGirlWriters All credit goes to Ian Brock, Kim Karon and the other fine fillies in the art department.

@emtothea :

@rkwatchestv @creativeg33k @CarolynRodham nothing #LostGirl art department does is in vain or unthoughtful. They are meticulous; brilliant.
421. stacymd2
Dyson's mate for life started in season one. This has been a key part of his character from the beginning of the show. Changing that now is lazy writing and a major retcon to cater to angry fans. It would not be organic and devolves Dyson. Bo taking advantage of Dyson is on Bo and her conscience. Why should Dyson be rewritten to make Bo seem less selfish and ease her guilt?

No one would want TPTB to dump Bo's succubus nature to suit Dyson --or Lauren. Bo being a succubus and having many sexual partners is her biology. It is not something that Bo would choose if she is in a relationship.

Everyone is A-OK with criticizing Dyson for his love, who he is and his devotion to Bo, yet no one takes Kenzi, Lauren & Tamsin to task for revolving their lives around Bo. Because Dyson's "wolves mate for life" is a stated "thing" on Lost Girl it has become a target for fan ire.

Kenzi has been "Bo's Friend for Life" for the past three seasons. She dumped Nate and tried to become Fae to be a part of Bo's world.

Wonder Lauren, M.D. has been scary smart "Ex-Girlfriends for Life" for the past three and a half seasons. She stayed with the Fae when told to run because of Bo. This season she has come running to help Bo & competed with Dyson for her affections despite dumping Bo three times. (there was no reason for her to be on the Hel Shoes road trip, Yule episode)

Tamsin has been snarky "Valkyries for Life" for one and a half seasons. Tamsin didn't give up Bo to Evony or The Wanderer. Tamisn has been trying to get in with the Sunshine Gang since last season.

Kenzi, Lauren and Tamsin latched on to Bo becasue they were missing something in their lives (love/family/friendship/loyalty). These are strong biological needs, just as Dyson's mate for life thing is for him. When you "mate for life" with someone isn't that you getting and giving love, family, friendship & loyalty?

Should Bo not be friends with Kenzi/Lauren/Tamsin because they are only with her to full fill their need for love, family, friendship and loyalty?

Who would Bo rather have at her side? Emotionless strangers who want to be there for their own reasons or Dyson, Kenzi, Tamsin & Lauren who love and need her in their lives for emotional and biological reasons? You tell me @NYpinta.

@WhiskeyWhite: I don't think Laveau is "dead". She wasn't alive when Bo cut her head off. Laveau's creepy boyfriend will sow her head on another body and she will come back to life or undead life.

It is very disappointing that Lost Girl is all white now. Lets hope EA & JF at least bring in some minority guest stars for season five's arc.

@DarthFaeder: Tam Tam is very popular. Lets hope no one else dies this season. In soaps, if someone dies and it isn't permanent, then it might as well have not have happened. Fake deaths are contrived drama.

Let's over analyze this...(Is it Sunday yet? No? Damn!!) If XXXX dies and Bo brings her/him back to life:

Super-Wonder Lauren, M.D.: Clearly this means Lauren is Bo's one true love. Lauren will become immortal. Bo finally understands that Dyson is an evil misogynist. Lauren will create a medication so Bo can be sexually monogamous. A Doccubus wedding and babies will follow. They will keep Kenzi as a wise cracking pet.

Trick: Bo and Trick will become closer. He will beat himself up for his past mistakes. Trick will still keep his secrets. RH/Trick will only be used for info-dumps. The triangle from Tartarus will continue. No real shake up in the show dynamic.

Dyson: Bo will bone Dyson's brains out. Dyson and Bo will become closer. Doccubus will break the Internet. Dyson will have to say 20x in three episodes that: Bo loves Lauren; Bo has a girl friend; Lauren is a genius. Dyson may be put in a relationship with someone. The triangle from Abaddon will continue. No real shake up in the show dynamic. Bo will never be allowed to choose Dyson unless it is the last 3 minutes of the final episode, of the show finale.

Tamsin: Bo will kiss Tamsin. Tamsin will have a closer relationship with Bo. Tamsin will be more devoted to the Sunshine Gang. Doccubus will break the Internet then attack RS. Kenzi and Tamsin will be funny. Kenzi and Tamsin will snark on people. Tamsin may be put in a relationship with someone. The triangle from Niflheim will continue. No real shake up in the show dynamic.

Kenzi: The world will weep then celebrate. Bo and Kenzi will repair their relationship. Kenzi will be tougher, but still be snarky and funny. Kenzi will continue to revolve her life around Bo. The triangle from Duat will continue. No real shake up in the show dynamic.
422. nypinta
No, Dyson's mate for life thing was not established in season one. It was a quip. A tease between lovers after an intense conversation. Making it an actual think *late* in season 2 was lazy. And cynical. They didn't trust the audience to understand that Dyson's sacrifice for Bo was tragic so they had to hit everyone over the head with it, just to make Kenzi getting it back a bigger deal, just like they shoe-horned in the love triangle again so that we'd get it when Bo came back saying Rainer was her "destiny" was so horrible. They needed a reason to make Dyson always a leg in a triangle so they tied him to her in a way he can't undo even if he wanted to.
423. nypinta
I have zero problem with Dyson loving Bo. I even said that. I have a problem with it not being his choice. And I certainly wouldn't want people by my side because they didn't have a choice in the matter.
Kenzi, choice. Lauren, choice. Tamsin, choice. All are there by choice. Why can't Dyson have that? Why doesn't he get to decide for himself that he wants to be there instead of not having any other option? In S2 he lost his passion and love for Bo. But he still stayed there and was there as her back up whenever she needed because although he couldn't love her, he still admired and respected her. Like Lauren and Kenzi and Tamsin, he doesn't need some fae shenanigans to want to be there.

And I do not understand the idea that by wanting Dyson to be able to choose Bo makes him an "emotionless stranger". I mean... what?

As for the zombie woman telling him his love is a prison of his own making, I don't think is a retcon at all. I think when the Norn took his love for Bo, it was his one love and without it he couldn't love anyone else. But she is telling him that he has his love back and he gets to choose who to give it too. That he can love another. I have no problem with that at all. Bo shouldn't get it automatically because of something he said three years previous.
Carmen Pinzon
424. bungluna
Am I the only one who thinks that the character who has suffered the most is Kenzie? All the angst and fake-triangle and destiny Bo has detracted from what I considered the most important relationship of the show in the beginning: Bo and Kenzie's friendship.

Last season, Kenzie was so marginalized that she pretty much only worked as mouthpiece for the retcon-ed WonderLauren propaganda and as a pointer to how off Bo's character had become. I loved the beginning of this season because, yay, more Kenzie. I loved when she called Bo on all the soccucrap after Hale's death. I just wish the writers would focuse more on the Bo-Kenzie dynamicas and less on the love triangle that never has worked.
Nadine Robb
425. cmm
@nypinta They voted him out. Hence why I said he didn't quit. They stopped listening to him. He even made of point of mentioning it was the one time both light and dark worked together. Light and Dark may not mingle into trivial matters but when it comes to the big stuff both sides work together. I think Rainer or the wanderer or whoever that guy is is big enough to get both sides working together.
Nadine Robb
426. cmm
@bungluna You are not wrong for thinking it. She has. Hence why i forgive Kenzi for a lot of what has happened this season. It's like even this season to an extent she's been ignored. To be honest I don't think i'm going to be watching season 5. There has been too much stuff that has gone down this season that has just annoyed the crap out of me.
427. drusilla_doll
@Staceymd2: Your post made my afternoon. Wonderful snark! The triangle from The Ninth Circle of Hell indeed. :P

@Nypinta and @Whiskeywhite and quite a few other people: Some really good points and it's given me a lot to think about going forward.

@Bungluna: I actually agree with you, as of now, Kenzi's lost the most overe all, and has suffered the most neglect/mistreatment from Bo. I still think Dyson is second.
428. stacymd2
@nypinta: Would Bo rather have Evony (who doesn't care & has her own agenda) by her side than D/K/T/L just because they all have a physical and emotional reason for being there.

Dyson chose to love Bo before and after the Norn. He walked into Bo's bedroom. He dimmed the lights. He lit some candles and found her body oils. He turned down the satin sheets. He striped wolf naked. He laid down in Bo's bed and choose to lie there until she is ready to be in a committed relationship with him (and bone his brains out...let's not forget the sexy times.) That was a choice on his part. What real difference does it make if ther is a bio reason for it? Bo has a bio reason for sex. The wolves mate 4 life thing does not stop him from doing his job or being with/loving other people.

With that said, I do want Dyson to have an affair with someone else. Tamsin, Acacia, Angel, Selene, Vex, Clio, Val...I'd take Trick if the writers made it believable.

@bungluna: The saddest part of S3 & 4 has been the deterioration of B/K. Despite the tragedy with Hale, I think B/K will grow stronger because of the hardship. Family stick together. They work things out during the rough times. Last season the Sunshine Gang was split apart, this season will end with them united. I think in 412 we will see Bo realize how badly she has neglected the most important person in her life--Kenzi.

@cmm: I was just about to post that Hale was booted out of his position, he didn't quit, and then I saw your post. We will never know how Hale felt about or would have done with his life now.

Is it wrong to feel worse for Kenzi?
Maria Payne
429. Georgiana2494
@stacymd2- I am loving your snarky posts. Actually everybody's posts has gotten me analyzing the show more and picking up on things I have missed. I could only wish that I could post things just as clever as everybody.

I am starting to wonder if they are setting up Bo to be separated from everybody. Dyson has already stated that she will be on her own, what if everybody else does the same?
430. TheUberFan
I think that's already starting to happen. By Bo's actions and decisions, the people in her life are slowly peeling off. Hale is now dead, Kenzi is about to divorce her emotionally it seems (thus the demand to unclaim her), Tamsin got the message that Bo is following her Rainer dreams and has backed off, Dyson has been stomped all over, Lauren and Trick are left but from the preview, I suspect Lauren will sort of "cut ties" and who knows about Trick. lol

That's my perception anyway of what seems to be happening to her. From being a family joking over chili a complete disaster.

I have to believe this is intentional. I still think Bo has been screwed with...that there's something really wrong with her (perhaps manifest via the glowy handprint?)...and I still believe we don't know what really happened to her while she was gone or why she aligned with the dark.

I suspect we'll get some answers in the last two episodes, and more questions.
Nadine Robb
431. cmm
@Stacymd2 I remember that clearly because it meant that there would be more Hale season 4 or so I thought. Then we get he likes Kenzi and they date maybe 1 time on screen and then bam he's dead. I don't think it's wrong to feel worse for Kenzi. She's gotten the short end of the stick for two seasons now and she's supposed to be a main character. I really think the way they did her storyline with Hale was cheap. There was so much more that they could of done, even if KC had scheduling issues. They do the same for anyone else on the show.
Carmen Pinzon
432. bungluna
What really upsets me is that I know Bo will not face any consequences.

This show does not do consequences for certain characters; it does ret-conning. Witness WonderLauren in all her incongruous glory.

Dyson tried to help Bo by entering into a foolish bargain and paid for a whole season, (he's still paying, imo.)

Kenzie felt all alone and desperate and did some foolish things and look at her consequences. Hale's paid the most, for whatever reason.

But SuckyBo and WonderLauren? Not a damned thing.
Susan White
433. whiskeywhite
@stacymd2, I am usually a big advocate of "scenes mean different things to different people (so cut people some slack)." But arguing that Dyson's "you better be careful because wolves mate for life" statement to Bo was "a quip. A tease between lovers after an intense conversation" doesn't persuade me. I get that you very much want him to have choice as to his relationship with Bo, which makes that interpretation fit the bill. But when you look at the actual scene, he seems very ernest. I grant you that Bo seems to make light of what he has just said, which has always bothered me, and actually says, "No promises." But it didn't seem like a joke to me. Ah well,
scenes mean different things to different people.
435. nypinta
@whiskeywhite, actually that was me. And I've looked at the scene quite a few times. You Tube. ;) And it's set up the same way as a hundred other scenes between new lovers where one says something to the effect of 'you're stuck with me forever' yet it's not an actual thing. And if I were Dyson, a wolf shifter who was telling someone that at this moment I'm choosing them as my mate for life, which could be thousands of more years, and she responds "no promises" I'd be damn sure she understood just what I meant. He doesn't. Because it's not a binding contract like everyone wants it to be. And if it were when she made that "no promises" response it's clear that she isn't aware of what he is saying and not explaining it to her is kind of a crappy thing to do on his part.

I don't see what the zombie woman tells him as a re-tcon as it is her telling him to get out of an obviously toxic, one sided relationship. It's written all over his face he's miserable. The Dead Woman Walking was telling him he was making himself miserable. Which is true. The Norn said by taking his love for Bo she took his only love. Fine. While she had it in a jar he'd never be able to love another because his ability to love was tied to his love for Bo at the time. But he has it back. He does love Bo, because reasons. But it does not mean he can't love anyone else if he chooses especially since Bo (at this time) has made her choice. He has his love back. That's the important part. A lot of people wanted that to mean that his love is only for Bo as if it was a physical object he handed her and no matter what it's hers and she can take it and go home and not play ball anymore. (Not dirty.) But to choose a mate for life that doesn't choose you? What's the point? I think what he meant was that wolves, once they decided to commit, are monogamous. That was what the entire conversation was about.

How Evony has anything to do with I have no idea.

Now, that doesn't mean that I think he should be loving anyone else right now. But since he got his love back he hasn't been with anyone else ever. Because monogamy. Even if Bo has. Because succubus. So him being with Tamsin, even if it's not love, is a huge deal to Dyson. Tamsin is telling him the same thing the Zombie Borg Queen was, which is his adherence to what he thinks is his nature is making himself feel bad when he doesn't have too. Dyson has always had issues with taking on responsibility for more than he should, as he is with this now.
Nadine Robb
436. cmm
@nypinta "she responds" with no promises cause she's a succubus. Her saying that doesn't really change anything in that scene. It's how he feels about her and his mate for life thing. I for one though, when I watched that scene did not see her taking it very lightly. Especially since in seaosn 2 she continues to try to get him back until he forcefully tells her he no longer loves her. Then late goes with Ciara. I know people didn't think Bo fought hard enough for Dyson, but why would she when he was particularly nasty to her and then went with another woman.
437. lonewolf
Hello everyone, I promised myself I wasn't going to come on here til after 4/12, but then again there have been couple of promises that fell apart. So here I am, spending an hour and a half reading comments from 421, @ stacymd2. Super-wonder Lauren,M.D. will definitely have to be immortal just to be able to keep up with Bo and they do have doccubus children. And if they're going to keep Kenzi as their wise-cracking pet, why not be their faebysitter, also.

422@nypinta, I agree that Dyson's "mate for life" comment was just that, a quip. The reason I say that is because of how he said it. A lot can be revealed not by what a person says but how they say it. At that time his true feelings for Bo was something that he wasn't fully aware of until he went to the norn to intervene in her battle against Aife. Then and only then, when the norn told him what she was going to take, did he realize his true feelings for her. I think that in S1E2 at the cop shop is when a snowflake fell on Dyson. From there it slowly turned into a giant snowball of love that crashed into the norn and her tree. It wasn't until she took it that his snowball of love was shattered. What's the difference between a snowman and a snowwoman anyway?

423@nypinta, Bo and Dyson getting back together? I think only under special circumstances could that happen. What special circumstances, I cannot say. But the possibilty is there. As for the zombie queen's comment about his prison being his own making, That realization came to light after Bo essentially dumped him at the Dal. He has to break loose and go sniffing lol, around for someone new.
424@bungluna, I could not agree more about Kenzi being the one most neglected and hurt for at least the last season and a half. The rest of what you say, well there's not much if anything at all to dispute that.

425@cmm, Hale did not quit initially, a vote was taken by both the light and the dark eldders and a vote of "no confidence" was the result. I don't think it was until after Evony aka the Morrigan declared all humans owned by or under the employ of the fae, terrorists of the fae did he quit. 426@cmm, you'll be back if there is a season 5, which I hope there will be. If they end this show come the end of this season it will make for a lot of upset fans and turn this terrific show into a complete and utter mess. It will take away from what made this show so popular in the first place. I'll bet my 1997 Geo Prism Ls with 278,000 miles on it that you'll be back.

427@drusilla_doll, you want snarky? Read the comments I posted regarding nypinta's many questions she had asked about a million posts ago.

428@stacymd2, I don't have a problem with Dyson having an affair with somone else. But Vex!? Tried to sneek that one in didn't you. I said in response to someone (was that you nypinta?)saying Vex was Bo's big, bad, daddy, he'd have to mesmerize his junk to keep up with Aife. But Dyson and Vex, gross beyond words.

429@Georgiana2494, don't worry about trying to keep up with some of what these women (why do I feel like I'm the only guy on here, like the show, there are more women than men on here) read what they have to say and enjoy it. I do, but every once in a great while I get snarky, well only once anyway.

430@UberFaenatic, Not much to say here except we have both felt that the memories from being with Rainer on the train and setting up all those clues to bring herback to him were set up by him. They were false. But once his spell was broken and they got off the train I don't think that spell was there anymore. But....he did have some kind of sway over her. He most certainly had her under his spell, and he still does, somewhat. When she was looking at herself all bloody after slaughtering the una mens looked like doubt to me. And when she was sitting on the bed she said she wanted to trust him. Seems to me she laid that I want to trust you line on someone else before. And it's most likely possible that some questions will be answered only to have more questions arise. I think it's neccesary for them to keep everyone in total suspense til season 5.

431@cmm, we did get the short end of the stick as far as the amount of time we had Hale on this past season. For Bo to be brought back into the fold of the sunshine gang, and I firmly believe this, she will have to experience something that she has never really had to before. Humility, she has never really undserstood what it is and how it affects a person.
Pride without humility =arrogance. And you'll be back, I have an old beater in the parking lot that I'll bet on it.

432@I have no idea really what will happen to the vunder-docter. We'll see what happens with the DNA she got from Evony. Whatever ahe has planned may just backfire on her, who knows but the writers and producers of the show. But I firmly believe that Bo will have to experience and understand the true meaning of humility.

433@whiskeywhite, a quip,is a quip is aquip. Like I said earlier, tone of voice means everything sometimes. I will elaborate further, when I get back. But for now I have to pick up my friend, bring him to Dairy Queen and throw his blood sugar out of whack for the day. ;)
438. Darthfaeder
@Stacymd2 per post #428 After watching all hell break loose on twitter and the LG tumblr when Tamsin jumped up on Dyson's lap and started making out with him. I think the Ptb should tread lightly when it comes to having Dyson and Tamsin do that again. They've already pissed off most of the whole LG fandom with season 4.
@Bungluna I used to think that they would never do anything to make Lauren look bad, or have her face any consequences, because they are not wanting to piss doccubus off but not now. Lauren is actually now paying the consequences of breaking up with Bo. Bo in essence just told Lauren that she broke her heart and that is why they aren't together anymore.Kudos to the Ptb of LG because they finally had enough guts to tell doccubus that we are doing this our way not yours.
Having said that they could loose their spine they have just aquired, and turn right around and put Bo back with Lauren next season. Let's see if they will continue to have the guts to do it their way next season.
@Georgiana2494 I hope they do put Bo single and unattached again. That was how she was most of season 1, and that was the best season
besides season 3. Tamsin made season 3 awesome. This way no one ship is better than any of the other ships. Bo could have a thing going with Tamsin, Lauren, and Dyson if he still wants.
@Uberfae I agree with you I think that Bo has been tampered with
and manipulated by Rainer. I also think it is intentional on the Ptb
part. It does seem as if they are setting up Bo to go back to being single and fancy free with whomever.
Maria Payne
439. Georgiana2494
@UberFaenatic - I totally agree that Bo seems to have been screwed with. She is being manipulated, we just have to wait and see how.

@lonewolf - I think you hit the nail on the head. Bo should be shown humility. Just like in season 1 where she had never been rejected before she should also experience humility. Kenzi has said that some things have come easy for her. It is time that she stopped taking people for granted.

@Darthfaeder - I agree season 1 was awesome and I loved Tamsin in season 3 - she made it more fun to watch. It would be interesting to see Bo have something going on with Dyson, Lauren & Tamsin. But I would like to see that Tamsin makes Bo work for it. Too many people have fallen for Bo in the blink of an eye. I would find it extremely funny to see her have to woo. Just like her realization that she was rejected back in season 1.
Carmen Pinzon
442. bungluna
Personally, I would like to see WonderLauren happy with Evony, Dyson and Tamsin partnering in every way while keeping mamma Kenzie with them, and Bo having to stand alone for a while. Since the beginning, Bo has coasted without much effort. As a character, she needs to learn about the fae and about herself a bit befor hitching on to some other 'great love' interest.
Nadine Robb
444. cmm
I disagree that Bo has coasted. She usually did something and ended up in trouble for it because she was so new to the fae world. I just think that this season she has regressed in terms of character development. I really hate what they've done to her to make her fit with Rainer or whatever his name is. Hence why like everyone else I hope she is under a spell or something. Otherwise the writers have not done her character any justice.
Susan White
445. whiskeywhite
My apologies, @nypinta, for confusing you with @stacymd2 (and apologies to you too, @stacymd2).

You make strong arguments, @nypinta, and I do love a solid argument.
I know I should let this bone go, but what the hell ...

You say, I think what he meant was that wolves, once they decided to commit, are monogamous (rather than 'mate for life'). I think he does indeed feel that, but that's not what he said. What he said (condensed) was: "I don't want to share you" (I prefer a monogamous relationship) but I understand that you're a succubus so you can't be monogamous ("it's not in your nature") (which BTW explains, I think, his lack of surprise or distress at her "no promises" answer). He continues: Accepting that about you, I nonetheless choose to give myself to you ("I'm yours, if you'll have me").

I gather you accept all of this so far as him speaking honestly. Then the "wolves mate for life" line is a joke, i.e., not true, and you infer that he means something else. But making that not true reduces the significance of the commitment he has just made. Instead of "I have only one opportunity in my life to make this commitment and I make it to you," it becomes "I'm yours (for now, we'll see how it works out. If it doesn't I'll move on)."

As I said, I don't disagree that he feels that giving himself to her means that he will be faithful, even if she is not. (Or put another way, he will not interpret her having sex with other people as a lack of love or commitment). But my point is that we have to be careful about making inferences. We don't have enough information from that scene alone.

But we do have other evidence. The importance (to him) of his own faithfulness is painfully expressed in the scene in 1.12 when he is revived by Bo after Aife assaults him sexually. His first reaction is to fervently apologize to Bo. Why is he apologizing? He's the victim. He's apologizing because he feels he has been sexually unfaithful to Bo even though he didn't want or initiate it and had no power to stop it. That's actually the most painful thing about that scene to me, and I would argue to him, that from his perspective he's been forced to betray Bo so soon after committing himself to her (whether or not for life is apparently debatable).

So, I'm ready to lay down that bone.

But I can't agree, @lonewolf, that At that time his true feelings for Bo was something that he wasn't fully aware of until he went to the norn. I think he knew fully well what his true feelings were for Bo, but what he didn't realize -- and he says exactly this in 2.01 -- was that he valued his love for her more than he valued his wolf. Same thing, you may say. Maybe, but I'm big on details. You could as easily say then that he wasn't fully aware of his true feelings about his wolf.

Let me say, @lonewolf, that as far as I'm concerned you're welcome here as a man (you're obviously a devoted LG fan and can quote lines and scenes with the best of us). I suspect that there are not many men who regularly comment, if any others, but who knows who's lurking. All who love to discuss LG and who are respectful of the others are welcome here.
Carmen Pinzon
446. bungluna
@cmm - I don't think Bo has coasted exactly, but her attitude has been deletorious, (heh I love that word,) to the people around her.

Season 1 - she will live the life she chooses, but refuse to learn the rules of this new world. By all means, rush in and trample over everything; this solves all problems. And do bring a human into this world without thinking about the repercussions.

Season 2 - she doesn't even try to find out about Dyson's condition and how to reverse it. Never mind the whole Garruda caper.

Season 3 - yep, succubus be monogamous, with a Dyson fix when needed. Hey, the lustfull haze that excludes your BFF and leaves Kenzie drifting in a dangerous world you yourself haven't bothered to learn anything about is very generous of you. Never mind how you are draining a human with your hunger. And not giving much back, since you're always rushing off to save strangers.

I've said enough about what I think of SuckyBo this season. Imo, she does need a good wake-up call with painfull consequences.
Nadine Robb
447. cmm
Season 2 I forgave her cause as I said before Dyson was nasty to her. There was no reason for that behaviour especially since when he was with Ciara he was nicer. He was nicer without his love. Season 3 they didn't really have much interaction and the one time they did it, it was at Dyson's insistance because she was so weak. So i don't count that season for him using her. Season 4 its' clear she used him and I do not like that. She has changed a lot this season that much is true, but in the past I can't really blame her for the way she reacted. That being said I'm just not sure why the writers can't write her the same with DL. DL dumped her and that burned her badly, so why hasnt' she just moved on from her like she did with Dyson.
448. lonewolf
As for Bo being monogamous, I think there is an across the board agreement that Bo's ability to do so is not a true reality. But....when Aife and Bo were at the club house, Aife was telling Bo about lineage. Bo is a succubus, so one or both of her parents are succubi or inuccubi(is that spelled right?). So, I think logic would follow that Trick's wife, Aife's mother and Bo's grandmother Isabeau, is a succubus. If this is true than you have to ask the question was Isabeau's marriage to Trick monogamous? Not that it is any big deal, but I have wondered about that. One of the things that bugged me about S2E12 or S2E13 was Bo telling Trick she wants to know all about her grandmother. I was hoping we would get the low down on Isabeau ourselves. Even just a little bit would've been nice.

@whiskeywhite, believe it or not your comment on my being welcome to offer opinions here in this forum does make me feel somewhat more welcome than has already been expressed. Not to take away from anyone elses. For awhile there I thought I was going to have start taking hormone shots lol. Also my comment on tone of voice. After some thought, I had a friend who was attending a teachers college in southern N.J. back in the 70's. Just think, in 45 more years I'll be a hundred. Fifties crisis here we come. But, the reason I bring this up is because of her wanting to be a teacher,she also took a course in psychology. We would have discussions on behavior, what a person says and how they say it reveals true feelings. I am going to straddle a fence here, while we both agreed about how "tone of voice" may reveal a persons thoughts or feelings, we both came to agree that truth is quite often told in jest. So what I'm trying to say is that while Dyson may have put the Wolves mate for life in a manner that would be considered a light hearted, jestful manner it just may well be that, the truth. In this case Dyson was serious. Of which we all know to be true. If that makes any sense at all.

So with all of that being said, I really do enjoy being a part of this. But while I do my best to carry a solid, serious conversation, I have and may still upon occasion, fall off that wagon and fall in to a big, deep muddy pit of humor. What can I say, every August we have an event called the Mud Bowl. Muddy football, all us grown up men get to play in the mud like kids.

Where is Rainer? The last we saw of him if I remember was at the clubhouse reassuring Bo that slaughtering the una mens was necessary. Then the last we hear is that he went to the battlefield to pay respects to the dead. Guess we'll find out soon enough. And the timeline for Tricks going from King of the light to being the dark king still has me wondering. Which came first. Did his using his power to write the blood laws wind up corrupting him. Did his turning Aife over to the dark king have anything to do with it. And where is that crown that was on the train. I'm not going to speculate any further concerning that matter.

All I know is this, when E12 comes on and I am serious about this, I am going to have a balled up sock here next to me. I have a HDTV that I bought a few weks ago so I don't throw it directly at it anymore, just in it's general direction.

Regarding lurkers, I was never one. I googled Lost Girl comments because I wanted to find out what others had to say and if my opinions jived with anyone elses. I was not on here for maybe 10 minutes before I came on and offered an opinion. Not to beat a dead cow, but I even let my meatloaf go cold that day.

And if there are any other men lurking on here, all I can say is show some sack and let yourself be known. It is not a threat to ones masculinity to do so. I did not change from my real name (Ron Grant) to lone wolf to hide behind it. It has to do with both Dyson being the lone wolf on the show and a picture that I have of a white wolf running thru a snow field. So gets your socks ready everyone, these last two episodes could stir up some intense emotions. ;)

@bungluna, I have a dictionary of difficult words which, along with a small websters dictionary, I keep close at hand. The word fits like the center piece of a jigsaw puzzle. But for one itty, bitty difference, there's an e where the o is. Hope you don't get upset, I'm just picky that way. I think it's the nature of being a virgo that causes that. And I spent 2 1/2 hours on here yesterday morning scrolling up and down to read comments and offer my own. Not so today, it was only an hour.
So, til Monday, have a good weekend everyone. Oh, and one other thing, what happened to that crown that was on the train?
Carmen Pinzon
449. bungluna
Oops! Forvime me for the misspelling. English is not my mother tongue, plus I'm a horrible speller in any language.
Nadine Robb
450. cmm
@bungluna Don't worry about it. I'm english and I didn't even notice lol!
451. stacymd2
Damn this job of mine. It keeps getting in the way of my Lost Girl musings. Sunday is almost here so we don't have much longer to wait.

@Georgiana2494: Tamsin was a breath of fresh Valhalla air in Season three but she wasn't enough to cleanse what dominated that Season. The only reason I even kept watching Lost Girl after 301 was Dyson and Kenzi. If Sleepy Hollow, Bitten or Agents of Shield had been on then I wouldn't have bothered. I'm very glad they kept Tamsin this season. Ta & K have been great together. It's nice to know K will have a girl friend she can talk to since Bo is busy.

@Bungluna: D/K/Ta/Tr need Bo in their lives and vice versa. The Sunshine Gang was brought together because of Bo so I don't want her to be alone per se, but I do want her to have some emotional consequences for her current behavior. B/K need some major bonding sessions to repair thier friendship. They can't do that unless they are working on something together. Next season I hope D/Ta/Tr get storylines/arcs that do not revolve around Bo and the Hel Triangle. They need this to evolve.

It would have been nice to see Dyson's train K to be a shadow thief next season instead of it being off screen this season. TPTB didn't even bother to explain what a Shadow Thief is/does.

It would have been nice to see Trick and Stella's long distance relationship progress and break up next season instead of everything happening off screen before S4 even began. TPTB didn't even bother to explain why Trick broke things off.

@DarthFader: Why? I understand the ship aspect of it. If their main love is for the character of Tamsin/RS the actress, then the outrage was a bit much. The way Tamsin is going to get out of recurring role limbo is for her to be involved with a lead. There are two leads on Lost Girl, AS and KHR.

IMHO, EA may not put Bo/Tamsin together (or Bo with any woman) because of Doccubus. She doesn't fear or fawn over Team Badass like she does the other ships. Bo has been in two relationships with men outside of Dyson (Ryan and Rainer). B/Ta was subtext in S3.

This is just my opinion and I'm frequently wrong, but (to me) Tamsin's best chance to be on screen more is to be linked with Dyson. They could hook her up with Kenzi, but if Hale was expendable ...

@bungluna: It annoys me to no end how Bo hasn't bother to learn the Fae rules she's breaking or to understand why they were put in place to begin with. Geeze, her grandfather only wrote them! I would want to know the family history alone if it were me. On the other hand, if Bo did that then the writers would have to say what the rules are and explain them on screen. This would make it hard for them to reverse, change and make up rules to suit a new plot. Also, EA would have to keep track of them in a show bible and consistency is the enemy of story to her.

@lonewolf: I've always wanted Bo (and/or Dyson) to ask Trick for relationship advice so they can know how he made his marriage to a succubus/sex chi eater work. It would have been a great bonding moment and we would have gotten backstory and development on Trick. Bo and the Gang only use Trick to hear exposition related to the MotW.

@lonewolf: Where is the crown indeed? Let's hope it makes an appearance in 413 at least.
452. Bore-mudaTriangle
@stacymd2 I agree about how EA may not put Tamsin and Bo together just because of Doccubus. But they should not cater to the Doccubus fandom. If they are only going to do that, afraid to enrage their Doccubus fans, they shouldn't even bother with Bo being with anyone else or have other love interests (subtext or not) because that will just enrage the other ship fandoms. To be teased and then have Bo just end up with Lauren in the end, even though Lauren has turned Bo down numerous times. To be honest, I feel that they cater to the fandom already, and in the end they will have Bo and Lauren together. Which is fine, but only if they meant it to be that way, not because of the fans. They should write whatever story they please and not be like, "Well.. the Doccubus fans (larger part of the LG fandom) want more Bo/Lauren together time! Write it in and have it be end game!" I want the writers to stray away from Bo being with anyone in the triangle. She tried with both of them, it didn't work for one reason or another. It just get's a bit boring when they've strung really only these two relationships out for 4 seasons and it still hasn't been resolved. Either pick someone, no one.
453. stacymd2
Any one else think the Una Mens were a little to easy to defeat? Two Fae took on about six Fae. The Una Mens are suppose to be so feared that all of Faeville is shaking in thier helskor. No enemy (or hero) should be omnipotent, but neither Bo or Rainer had major wounds.

If Rainer used his battle forsight Fae powers to fight off the Una Mens then how come the Una Mens didn't use his powers against him?

There must be Fae more powerful that Bo or Fae with some form of foresight. One one else thought to gang together to destroy the Una Mens?

Is Bo to face absolutly no repercussions for murdering a major governing Fae body? No arrest? No trial? No stink eye? No strongly worded letter at very least? Then again, Aife is running around scott free after killing elder Fae and putting the first Ash in a coma.

It's interesting (to me) that two of the last three season ending Big Bads (Aife & Garuda) wanted to undo the Blood Laws. There must be something to the Blood Laws (Dark and Light separation) that works. They must do more than bring drama to Bo's love life and interupt her Yule celebrations. The writers should let us know how the Laws work so we can understand why Trick wrote them the way he did and how they keep the peace and the Fae safe.

Three topics that I saw on other boards that I thought were interesting:

1) What if, at the begining of the season, Wonder Lauren was actually found by Trick and has been working with Trick & Evony this whole time. Her "choosing" the Dark Fae over Bo was a ruse. Trick & Evony hireded her to help with their master plan to take down the Wanderer/Una Mens/Odin/Evil Bo. Wouldn't this take away her "agency". Everyone here and at the Church of Lauren thought Wonder Lauren was taking charge of her life, standing up for herself, etc., but if that was a ruse then she is still emo pining for & revolving her life around Bo.

2) Another way to look at the D/Ta snog scene. Was Tamsin "taking advantage of a drunk Dyson" sexually? If the gender roles were reverse, where a sober Dyson came on to and coerced a drunk Tamsin into sex, heads would roll.

3) By making Kenzi a victim of child abuse did that diminish her strength? The blogger said that it turned her into a cliche victim. We all knew Kenzi had a rough home life and ran away as a teenager. A rough home life, however, can range from: hating your parents for " not understanding" you; to you and your parents have wildly different values/goals; to your parents are oppressively strict or demanding; to your parents are extremly poor and can't afford you; to general neglect becasue they don't care or work to much; to physical and/or sexual abuse. It could have meant anything to viewers and to the blogger it should have stayed way. He things that the abuse background, "implies that the only reason is strong is because she was victimized as a child". I don't agree with his reasoning, but it is an interesting point.
454. stacymd2
@Bore-mudaTriangle: I agree that TPTB should not cater to any fandom (even my own) and tell the story they want to tell. The writers already catered to fan pressure starting in Season 2 by increasing ZP's role and rewriting Lauren's (Karen/Wonder Lauren, M.D.) background and personality to make her a better fit for Bo and the Sunshine Gang. They are not going to stop now.

Look at Season four...

EA likes needling the fandoms (she thinks it keeps "us" engaged) but she would never push Doccubus to far. She caters specifically to them by personally commenting on their website, tweeting them and giving interviews on their pod casts. Putting Bo in a meaningful relationship with another woman would drive them away.

The Church of Lauren is not a large part of the Lost Girl viewership. They are just the ship that makes the most noise online.
455. Bore-mudaTriangle
@stacymd2 Ah! Well I don't really know the numbers, and only see what is online, but yes they do make the most noise.

Yeah, they need to take their show back. Right now it's partically in the hands of the Doccubus fans. While I do like Lauren/ZP, I hate how much the show caters to her character. And to be honest, some of her fans make me dislike her character a bit just because how they act. It's pretty bad when you are afraid to write something anti-Lauren because you know you're going to get attacked.

Lauren doesn't really have many love-interest choices. Bo, Tamsin and Evony are (so far) the only bi/gay women. Tamsin and her.. lol. I just can't see that ever happening. Maybe because the only scene I remember them in is when Lauren slapped her. ;P Evony and her could work, but I think right now they are just setting up for a spybang type deal, so the fans get a little Levony but it'll probably go back to Bo. I really hope Bo does get into a romantic relationship with another woman. Even if it's Evony! Maybe the Doccubus fandom will take a step back and realize that *maybe* they won't get everything they want.
456. doppleganger
Though I've been watching for ages, I've never posted. But the theories, engagement, ire, excitement ... well it's just contagious. I have to say, I'm in agreement we are in store for at least one major character death. Probably two. Bo will finally have to CHOOSE someone to save with her hellshoes (dude, where's Angel?) against Levi. I think it's going to be one of the untouchable threesome (Dyson, Lauren, Kenzi) and Tamsin, and Bo will choose to let Tamsin go to save one of our favorites. Being a hopeful Valkubus shipper, I'd be sad if I'm right, but this has to be where it's going.

The big-bad can't be Rainer. Either someone is pulling the strings and he's a puppet or he is in on it (my bet is the former, he seems too hot and dopey to be an evildoer).

My bet is that the big-bad is Odin or Hades (I love both theories and can't figure out which is most likely), that Evony is somehow in truck and Massimo is her son (eww!) and he is the one who grabbed the seed to please mommy (double eww). Vex is going to play some heroic role in unveiling this deceit ... he's good ... I can feel it!

Looking forward to Sunday.
457. stacymd2
@Bore-mudaTriangle: I've secretly wanted Aife and Evony together for a while now. Inga C. and Emmanuelle V. are stunning and would burn up our screens. I can picture Evony teasing Bo about it and telling Bo to call her "mommy". The evil fun those two characters would have could be epic.

I like ZP a lot too. She is so funny at cons. Her cat's twitter is hilarious and she seems like the sweetest person ever. ZP is also a very talented actress and singer. I just don't see any chemistry between her and AS and Lauren and Bo have nothing in common & don't fit in each other's worlds. Every time Bo gets that round eyed look and says "science-y" (or some equivalent) to Lauren's babble I cringe. It's awful to see Lauren correct Bo on things or "teach" her something like a professor to a slow student.

In the hot dog scene after the gang + Lauren save Dyson-Kenzi from the Una Mens (407), Bo says something about the red string of fate, then Lauren in her professor voice says something like, "Well Bo, actually, the string is meant for two people." Ugh! She's done this other times in the past and it turns me off. Why do the writers have Lauren say these things and why does ZP deliver the lines in that way.

I also don't think they genuinely respect each other. Bo's line in Season 3 (?) where she says something like, "I'm saving people and all you do is look at your petri dishes" (?). Bo doesn't understand in any way what Lauren does, isn't interested in finding out and doen't "get" her on a basic level.

Lauren devoted five years of her life to finding a cure for Nadia, but after the first major rough patch in her relationship with Bo she bails. Bo was going through a major change in her life (which could have ended in Bo dying or coming back as an underFae) and Lauren ends the relationship because she was unhappy. Also, some of Lauren's lines which were about Dyson ("being well travel" and implying how he is only muscle/brawn) makes me wonder about what she really thinks of Bo. Bo didn't graduate high school, acts first/questions later and isn't excatly "untravel".

I thought Lauren was least awkward with Crystal--and those two have even less in common than B/L. Evony/Lauren might work because Evony seems classically educated & smart, but I have to seem them interact more.
458. stacymd2
@doppleganger: Hi and welcome! This site is super addicting--like sparkle fae jelly addicting. I also think Vex will work with the Sunshine Gang and/or do something heroic in 413. The show wants to redeem him and keep PRA. He would be a great addition to the show.

Interesting spec on who may die next and if Bo will have to choose between one of "the untouchable threesome" vs. Tamsin. I hope this is not the case, but it would make a compelling story. I can picture the person being Kenzi and Tamsin ultimately sacrificing herself so Bo doesn't have to choose between them. (sob!)

But, this is Lost Girl we are talking about so the next death might end up being Rainer only and Bo tricks Levi again into save him.

I still think Rainer will turn out to be uber evil. You'll see on Sunday--or Monday for me.
Carmen Pinzon
459. bungluna
Bo and Rainer defeating the Una Mens made partial sense to me. This is how I justified it:

1. The Una Mens can turn fae powers against the user, so fae, who tend to think only of using their powers and not much else, can't defeat them.

2. Rainer uses his fae power to help Bo defeat the Una Mens, so he's not using said powers against them per se.

3. Bo uses muscle as well as her fae powers to get her way.

4. Bo, guided by Rainers pre-congnition (?) uses muscle against them. Backed by Rainer muscle too, I guess.

There, justification done. Una Mens defeated.
460. lonewolf
I've read a lot about the doccubus fans essentially hijacking the show. And theories about what to do and who to pair up. Levony, Bevony, Evony. So, here's what I think should be done. How about an L/B/E threesome. A new love triangle that still keeps Dr. (yeah right) Lauren and Bo together, but with a twist. Then let Evony decide who she wants as her main squeeze. That should make all the doccubus fans happy right? Dyson has to move on from Bo so his hooking up with Tamsin may not be a bad idea, but I would like to see Angel appear and come into play also. Other than Bo, Kenzi's closest friend is Dyson, so maybe Kenzi gets Bo to unclaim her and lives with Dyson, platonicaly of course. That would aid in Bo's recieving a wake up call. Then at the same time Dyson gets Kenzi in the ring and we see his teaching Kenzi not only how to be a shadow theif but a "kick ass" shadow thief. That would be cool to see next season. Plus, if Kenzi is with Dyson, then Tamsin could come into play because of her and Kenzi's bonding and becoming fast friends.

@stacymd2 and @Bore-mudaTriangle, having Aife and Evony pair up would make for a deliciously evil duo. But who would handcuff who to the bed?

@stacymd2, I thought the slaughter of the una mens was to quick and easy. But , I don't know if Rainer was directly, physically involved in it. Because of what you say about the una mens turning a faes powers back on them. He may have been able to forsee what the una mens next moves were going to be and coached her on what to do. And as Bo was about to skewer the keeper, it didn't look like Rainer had any blood on him.

@doppleganger, welcome to a very addicting forum. Your theory about Odin being the big baddie is plausible. Someone earlier on in this discussion had mentioned something along those lines. Suggesting that Tamsin had been brought aboard the train. So what if Odin summoned Tamsin to take the real Rainer to Valahalla and he took his place. Odin was known to be a shape shifter able to take on any human form. Soooo.....I don't think Hades would be a viable candidate because the writers or EA would have to maybe bring in a bit of Greek mythology. But like some say, who knows what kind of rabbit they have in their hat.

Daylight is burning, amazing how time flies when your having fun, isn't it.

I'm late, I'm late for a very important date. That is what Vex said as he rushed out of Tricks lair. I think he does know something. And as Acacia and Tamsin were talking when leaving the zombie getto town, Acacia told her to keep an eye on Massimo because he something big planned. And a question here, if massimo still had the Twig Of Zamora in his pocket, would his tender bits magically re-attach it self if Kenzi were to slice them off with Geraldine?

And one last question before I get, or try to get some of my errands done. @stacymd2, if sparkle fae jelly were available on the shelf would you buy some. I know I would, but I wouldn't make a sparkle fae and peanut butter sandwich. I'd have a sparkle fae jelly in a hot dog roll sandwhich.

Alright, one more question and then I'm outta here. The crows where talking about what they would do after Rainer fell into some abyss. I couldn't make out what abyss they were talking about, but maybe it has something to do with disposing of Rainer or maybe it was just rhetoric. Now I'm done, til later this afternoon probably. And the suspense builds.
461. Cynthia Cornett
I am very upset that they killed Hale off I mean come on hasn't Kenz been through enough she has repeatedly lost an gained friends and lovers plus she gets to sit back an watch Bo take on relationship after relationship.... I really am disappointed that she lost him. BUt other wise I love this show.... It is my Favorite... Anyways Off the HAle and Kenz trouble. Am I the Only one thinking what the hell is going on with Bo.... She makes me so mad. Why didn't she chose Di.... I mean she loved him Nefore LA or Ri. I'm totally mad that the didn't kill La off. I mean come on she is so annoying...... Anyone with me
Maria Payne
462. Georgiana2494
@lonewolf - I think the train was falling apart and Rainer would have ended up in the abyss if it was not fixed or if he did not escape. At least that is how I understood it.
463. lonewolf
@Cynthia Cornett, everybody is mad that Hale died. And nobody is sure what is wrong with Bo. Nobody is sure why Bo didn't pick Dyson. But they have been together and broken up before so we can only wait and see. Also @Cynthia Cornett, welcome we look forward to hearing more from you.

@Georgiana, well that could be what the crown was made from. A piece of metal from some part of the train that may have broken off. Or he could have cut a piece off the train off with his torch and made it with the torch. We'll probably never know how it was made, what I want to know is where is it now.
464. lonewolf
@Georgiana2494, sorry I didn't get your full name on here.
465. JayCruz61
Man I wish I can get in here more often. In any event, has anyone else heard this major spoiler about the Kenster. I read, from another Lost Girl Forum that Kensi is going to come up pregnant to continue the Zamora Clan via Hale's heritage, which will spark season 5. If true, what a twist.
Susan White
466. whiskeywhite
Welcome @doppleganger and @Cynthia Cornett. Take off your hats and stay a while.

I, too, think that Vex will do something redeeming, whatever he actually means to do (in other words, he isn't going to go all goody two shoes on us. I like him best when he's conflicted, torn between his good and bad sides. We saw in the scene with Trick that he still doesn't believe he can be good).

Tamsin dies (or sacrifices herself) to save one of the 'big three' is an intriguing idea. What happens to Valkyries after their last life? Are they dead dead? I guess so. The wings are a strong Christian image (being literal, as I so often am) of angels and an after life.

Well, that's a tasty morsel, @JayCruz61, that Kenzi will be pregnant. Was there are actual evidence for this idea, or just a flight of imagination? (Which none of us here would ever engage in of course.)

By the way, someone commented earlier that Hale's family still hates Kenzi (or something similar). But we saw when Hale made the big speech at the ball and confronted his father over the coming of the Garuda, that as he, Bo and Kenzi left, the father politely said goodbye to Kenzi, suggesting that he had changed his mind. And Val did fight along side Kenzi in the big battle against the Garuda. Now if clan Zamora needs an heir, how about Val and Dyson? They would be a pretty kiss ass pair and that would give the clan the fighting spirit that the dad would have preferred over Hale being a siren.
Nadine Robb
468. cmm
@JayCruz61 Which forum did you read that on? As different as that would be, I doubt it would happen.
469. lonewolf
@ JayCruz61, if Kenzi is with Hales child then that will be huge bombshell. But they did lay down and start ticklin' (got that from the movie Austraila) so it could just may well be. It's just a matter of wait and see. It would make foran interesting 5th seasaon to start.

From watching that scene where Vex was with Trick in his lair, it may just be me, but when the books rearranged themselves Vex was up and out of there. As he was leaving he said I'm late, I'm late for a very important date. Maybe it's just me but there seemed to be something there.
@whiskeywhite, Hale's family ultimately showed the respect she deserved when she and Bo
took on the cherufe Not only that but I think hale had a small epiphany. He had fallen in love with Kenzi. He had feelings for her but at the inverell it all came to light for him. You could see it in his eyes as she entered the ballroom. And then when he brought her back to the clubhouse he looked back at her and you knew it was love. I don't think Hales family will be angry with her over the Zamora Twig. They will, however, be wanting massimo's head.

@whiskeywhite, Val and Dyson would be a good match. She would help him take his mind and feelings for Bo off his mind and let her go.

Acacia told Tamsin to watch her back because massimo had something big planned. Does he have the seed? Could it have been Vex that took it originally, he was at the Dal, or his hand was anyway, and given it to massimo. I thought that the seed may have been somewhere else because of the fan in the background and the ground the seed was sitting on because didn't look like the una mens lair. So will the seed turn up with our not knowing where it was, maybe another off screen story perhaps. I guess you'll maybe find out tonight and I'll find out tomorrow morning. I don't know that I will be sleeping well tonight, I'll be obsessing over what happened.

And where is Rainer, is he still paying his respects to the fallen. I still think that the spell he put her under (and it was spell of some kind) wasn't just it. When he saw her with the butterfly he said it is you. And he took her hand. She was all rammy until that happened and then he tells her to go and she says what about us. Then she comes running back into his arms. He may not have had the power of forsight then but he had some kind of power. So, lets see what happens tonight. I'll be watching it in the morning and then I may come on here to see what everyone has to say. Four hours and forty five minutes to go.
470. Darthfaeder
JayCruz I'd be shocked if Hale's family so much as recognizes Kenzi let along any baby. I wouldn't believe everything you read because alot of people are coming out, and claiming to know spoilers and be insiders of the show.
Maria Payne
471. Georgiana2494
@ UberFaenatic - do you have any sources to see the show tonight. I don't think I can wait until tomorrow.
Carmen Pinzon
472. bungluna
I thought it'd been established that half-fae kids are not acknowledged by the fae community? Oops, what was I thinking, that this show has any consistency whatsoever?!
473. lonewolf
@Georgiana2494, if you are talking about waiting til tomotrrow night I can give you a site where you can watch it tomorrow morning.
475. lonewolf
@Georgiana2494, it's called projectfree tv. Regardless of what you have for a browser, download adbloc plus, it will help you navigate the site better. Otherwise you have pop ups to deal with. So go to project free tv, click on tvshows. On the upper left type in lo. It will key on those letters. click search below that. Lost Girl will come up and click Lost Girl it self. All the seasons will come up. Click on which ever season and episode you want. There will be a number of links for each episode. I use putlocker, sockshare or gorrilavid. When I can I use nosvideo. It's hi def and you have zoom and slow mo. Do download adblock plus. It will help with other sites also. If you have any problems let me know. I have used it for two years now with no problems. Plus there are a lot of movies also.
476. lonewolf
@Georgiana2429, if do not wish to navigate sites go to stream I use firefox for my browser because it's a lot easier to download adblock plus and a popup download. I have used it for 9 years and I love it. There are only tv shows on steamtv. Project free tv has movies galore plus other tv series that are on now. The same thing with them, they play the next day after they air on primetime tv. Go to stream for now. It will be easier to get to it and watch the show. But I would reccomend downloading adblock plus regardless. I love project free tv tho.
477. lonewolf
@Georgiana2429, I will be checking in every 15-20 minutes or so to see how you do.
Nadine Robb
478. cmm
Sooooooo.... Where to begin. Every storyline except one all tied up in this episode. Not bad. But seriously Wonder Lauren again?!?!?!
479. Stacymd2
Hi gals and guys! So how was tonight's show? Did the Lauren/Evony kiss mean anything? Was Hale's funeral nice? Did D or K say anything? Did Rainer sprout horns and a tail?

I NEED to know!!!!
Nadine Robb
480. cmm
Lauren/Evony DEFINATELY meant something. Hale's funeral was brief. Dyson talked to Massimo who whispered something which I am assuming was about that origin seed. Kenzi wanted desperately to end Massimo. Rainer didn't sprout horns but was responsible for the thing that is to come in a way. But i'm begining to wonder IF he will change in the last ep. You never know with EA.
Maria Payne
481. Georgiana2494
@lonewolf - actually there is someone who posts the episode on a video site in the morning. I am gonna check it out tomorrow. But I did follow the live tweet and it was full of revelations and more questions.
482. Stacymd2
I've been on the L-Chat EA made Wonder Lauren into Super Duper Wonder Lauren a medical doctor and a bioengineer. Lost Girl became Mutant X this episode?

Are the Dyson and Bo/Kenzi scenes worth watching at least?
483. lonewolf
@Georgiana2494, which ever makes it easier for you. Enjoy the show. I would still like to see Rainer out of the picture. I am out of here til tomorrrow.
Nadine Robb
484. cmm
Despite the Wonder Lauren tripe the episode is pretty decent. I really hated what they made Lauren into its ridiculous. And again my season 3 rage bubbles up to surface. I still hate the fact that the character is all of a sudden super smart to change the DNA or humans and fae. Its not right.
@cmm: Based on the reaction I've seen, I'm not looking forward to seeing this episode. Super Duper Wonder munching Lauren, M.D./bioengineer who saves Bo and can weaken the mightiest Fae with her magical science. Ugh!!

It it seems as if EA did exactly what I thought she would do. 412 was mostly about Lauren, doccubus and Bo's pain and problems.
Nadine Robb
486. cmm
Actually wonder lauren did strike again but I can honestly say this episode was balanced. Doccubus was a blip in a much larger story. The one I reallly felt for in this episode was Kenzi.
Nadine Robb
487. cmm
BY the way can you give a me a link to that message board you visit please?
488. Bore-mudaTriangle
Oh goodness, I've yet to watch this episode and to hear "Wonder Lauren" makes me roll my eyes. Can't wait to hear all the Doccubus fans tomorrow declaring "Lauren has saved Bo and the gang once again!" I get that Lauren is really the only science smart character, but seriously, another poster and myself were just speaking of how the show caters to Lauren and Doccubus. Sigh.
Susan White
490. whiskeywhite

How did we do with the predictions?
- Trick and Evony working together - check
- Evony is Massimo's mother - yup
- Massimo has the seed - yes. (And eats it -- what happens as a result is reserved for next week.)
- Lauren still loves Bo and the whole 'joining the Dark' thing was done to help Bo. She had to make Bo believe it so that Evony would believe it. Yuperoony.
- Lauren has sex with Evony. But it's in order to continue to help Bo. Of course.
- Lauren uses Evony's DNA which she collected to trick Evony - check.
- Dyson is still helping Bo. What else? No apparent fallout from, or even mention of, Tamsin's and Dyson's little tryst.
- Tamsin is helping to figure out what's going on. No surprise.

Others? I'm probably missing some. Now for the misses.
- Kenzi isn't initially mad at Bo, until she refuses to help her kill Massimo. (She refuses because Dyson declares that it's important to keep him alive because of some info Massimo gives Dyson. What info? We don't know).
- Massimo is Vex's adopted son (sort of) whom he loves - wow! Evony dumped him on Vex (that may have been predicted).
- Bo is identified as "the queen" by the lady knight - figures. (Dyson later tells her that she isn't just any old queen, she's "the one". "The one" what, we aren't told).
- Lauren makes Evony into a human using the DNA by having sex with her. Evony - ahem - ingests the anti-fae serum. Evony suffers various human condititons for the first time (itchy nose, her period. Now if she doesn't have periods, how did she get pregnant and have Massimo? Magical Fae impregnantion?)
- Rainer continues to be seemingly a good guy.
- Bo binds herself to Rainer, fending off his impending death.
- The lady knight, Rainer's faithful lieutenant, betrays them.
- Binding herself to Rainer releases Bo's father (it seems) from 'hel'. The consequences of which are for next week.

As @cmm says, this was a good episode.
491. drusilla_doll
So hmm is this new development setting up making Bo human so she and Lauren can live a mortal life? Or will Lauren make herself Fae so she can be immortal and dodge that snag about having a short human lifespan.

After all, it's ALL ABOUT BO AND LAUREN, right? :P

I mean if WonderLauren can make a Fae human, she can create Fae World Peace, kill the Beast and generally solve all ills with her SuperScience. She can even make her fundamental incompatibilities with Bo and her past decisions and mistakes miraculously morph into positive sacrificial actions from a devoted lover.

I'm rolling my eyes so hard I may hurt myself.
492. Jojen Backslash
Hello all. Found this board after 4e11's disastrous turn and have been lurking since.

Tonight's episode was beyond incoherent with multiple new threads popping up left and right. LG's plotlines don't have to be entirely consistent but its loyal fans deserve much better. The writers have really lost their way - the tonal shifts in Bo and company are really incomprehensible.
493. TheUberFan
Georgiana2494... you could try It posted the ep an hour and a half ago. :)
494. TheGardner
Dammit! I just lost a bet. I agreed to write a 'Dark Bo' fanfic if Lauren had sex with Evony. I really thought I was safe, that it was just a tease and they really wouldn't go there. Thanks EA, FML...
495. drusilla_doll
@TG: Aww, the crosses we have to bear. But at least you have Lauren keeping Doccubus alive with her nonsensical 'I dumped you last season, left the Fae, joined Taft, made Taft Fae under duress, went off the grid for my crimes, joined the Dark for my freedom, dumped you again and screwed Crystal and Evony ALL FOR YOU, BABY.'
496. Stacymd2
L needed D's bone marrow injected into Taft to turn him Fae. Now all she needs to change Evony's entire DNA is some topical jelly on her vag?

L's super science is so amazing that she can rewrite a beings entire DNA in a few seconds and said being is in no pain and has no mutations or illness.

We need to just stop calling her Wonder Lauren or Karen or DL. We need to call her God. Forget Odin or Bo's daddy. Humans, Fae, whatever, we should bow and pray to Goddess Lauren, M.D.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
497. Kiersten

@Stacymd2 - Well, Syfy *does* need a new supernatural show soon...
Kiersten Hallie Krum
498. Kiersten
@Jojen Backslash - hi and welcome! Glad you came out of lurking.

At the moment, I'm wondering if you were in the room while I was watching this episode as I said many of the same things.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
499. Kiersten
My Twitter stream watching this episode:

At this point, I am well and truly lost. #LostGirl— Kiersten Krum (@kierstenkrum) February 10, 2014

Wait. Massimo overpowered Lauren & Evony & took them to Una Mens lair & what the huh now? WHAT THE BLOODY HELL IS GOING IN #LOSTGIRL ???— Kiersten Krum (@kierstenkrum) February 10, 2014

I officially have no bloody clue what the hell is happening on #LostGirl— Kiersten Krum (@kierstenkrum) February 10, 2014
500. drusilla_doll
If other Fae find out, surely they will make Lauren public enemy number one. After all, having the means to turn Fae human against their will is a pretty serious offense.

I'd be all for this development if Lauren hadn't turned everything she's done in the past season and a half into a shipping scene with Bo. SERIOUSLY.

Lauren becoming a true human terrorist against the Fae would be kinda cool. But nope, it's because of Bo? Who neglected her and doesn't appreciate science and can't be monogamous and is ALSO Fae?
501. TheGardner
I use delishows dot com, no downloading, just press play, but I don't get to watch it until I get home in the am so it might not be up yet.
502. TheUberFan
I have to be honest here. As much as I love Zoie Palmer, I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the show building and building her into preprosterous levels of superness. It's making me start to really resent the character, whereas before I was just slightly irritated by their continual padding of her backstory.
503. TheUberFan
BTW...@Kiersten...where did you read that Tamsin was going to do anything significant in the final episodes? So far...I'm going to have to say my definition of #Tamsinpalooza and EA's is drastically different.
Carmen Pinzon
504. bungluna
@drusilla_doll - careful, don't sprain your eye muscles! Don't you know that "...everything I do, I do it for youuuuu!"

@Jojen Backslash - Coherence is apparently the enemy of good story telling.

I don't know what to say. At this point, I nominate Bo for most TSTL heroine ever! She'll believe anythig any passing girl-knight stranger tells her. She'll go off and do any asinine thing to save the latest stranger instead of being with her supposed BFF whose suffered a major bereavement. She's just an IDIOT!

As for HALauren, human extraordinaire, somebody please unplug her. Her extreme geekiness is getting too MarySue for me. EA must have wanted to be a super-duper-med-geen in another life and this is her chance.

Maybe Massimo can squash her like a bug before he's defeated? I can only hope, but not too much...
505. drusilla_doll
They (Bo and co) make fun of Dyson going to the Norn to give up his Wolf spirit to help Bo fight Aoife and losing his LOVE instead. Bo takes his loyalty and continued support for granted to the point of shagging him several times this season before crushing him with a 'I love my new boy toy, but don't love you anymore, sorry dude.' But Lauren gets a 'you broke my heart' and wants credit for all the bad shit she did because she really was just um doing it all for the succubus? Yeah, right.

I'm gonna say it: The writing currently stinks, is woefully inconsistent and utterly implausible and is making me wish they don't get another season to shove SuperWonderMartyrSpymasterGenius Lauren down our collective throats.

Like I said, I'd be for Lauren making an offensive move against the Fae because of her backstory and experiences as a ward/slave, but making it all about Bo is beyond ridiculous when we - the fans - have watched the past few seasons and have eyes and brains and the show has NOT presented her rationalizations as anywhere near her 'reality' so far.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
506. Kiersten
Massimo whispered to Dyson: "All of your friends will die and you will just watch."

Closed captions, dear hearts.
507. Stacymd2
@drusilla_doll: Goddess Lauren's actions will be whitewashed just as her season 3 actions were whitewashed. EA/JF and all of the characters will say that Goddess Lauren save Them and the Fae.

As it stands Lauren technically messed up again, like in S3. Trick and Evony were working together. Evony would not have done anything to Bo, yet. She did the same thing when she left the Light for Taft after Ash Hale told her to stay until after his ceremoney.

S5 maybe another season of the gang cleaning up another mess that Lauren helped create, once they deal with Bo's daddy in 413.

If Goddess Lauren were pitted against the Fae then there would be no triangle and possibly no Doccubus. EA would NEVER do that. This does leave the door open now for Bo to choose Lauren and become human.
508. Bore-mudaTriangle
Just finished watching this episode.. a lot happened but I am still utterly confused. I need to rewatch to fully understand, maybe even a couple times.

Though, I was laughing so hard at Wonder Lauren. So, she was *magically* able to create an "antidote" to turn a fae into a human, with simple saliva, and she needed bone marrow to turn a human fae. She seems to have increased her knowledge very rapidly, eh? Sort of makes me angry, because Lauren is always made out to be this knight in a lab coat, when most of the other characters have had their downfalls and concequences, Lauren really never seems to have any. They are making her out to be this amazing superhuman. I know she is a popular character, but EA, your bias is showing BADLY. It's irritating to say the least. Though! I was thinking that Lauren turning Evony human kinda may be a hint to Levony down the road. Lauren would be better suited for a human. But we alllll know that Doccubus will rule the show in the end.

Also, very confused on the fact that Rainer is seeming to be a good guy now more than ever. He must be playing Bo and the gang very well if he is indeed that evil horned beast they say he is. I had a hard time following along with some of the stuff, did we learn who this "warrior" is yet?
Kiersten Hallie Krum
509. Kiersten
@UberFanatic It was in one of the post mortems, I think after the episode where she gets her wings. I remember it had something to do with the wings. But EA lies and trolls and we've all learned the hard way not to trust a thing she says in these interviews
Susan White
510. whiskeywhite
Ah, come on guys. Can't we talk about something other than Lauren? How about Vex having raised Massimo from infancy, apparently, and loving him despite how messed up he is with mommy issues? Now, the degree to which Massimo is messed up from having a father figure like Vex is worth considering. This comes out of nowhere and goes nowhere. It seems that it was just thrown in to have something unexpected.

It's true, Kiersten, that how Lauren suddenly became Massimo's cowering prisoner is, to be kind to the writers, a little unclear. We literally see nothing. It's just suddenly happening. Like somebody lost, or mixed up, a reel of film in the old days.

Nobody died. Oh, I forgot. Lady Knight (she has some silly name which I forget) burned up rather gruesomely having been betrayed by whomever bribed her to betray Rainer. Bo's father presumably.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
511. Kiersten
I honestly thought for a moment that Doctor Lauren, who was so smug and satisfied with herself despite once again having a break up with Bo seconds before, was setting Evony up to either make her human so DL could make herself Fae w/Evony's DNA and take over the Dark Fae (which I would love to see) or so that Bo, who is already declared Dark and no longer looking to undo that, can take over The Dark w/Doctor Lauren at her side as consort (which I would hate to see). And then suddenly Massimo overtook both of them, beat up DL, and stashed the women in the Una Men's dungeon to get his crazy on, which is absolutely, totally 100% not at all what Taft did at the end of season three. Nuh huh.
Kiersten Hallie Krum
512. Kiersten
Oh wait! I just got it.

Doctor Lauren has the mythical, magical ho ha!!
Kiersten Hallie Krum
513. Kiersten
@whiskeywhite - I dont care about Massimo. I dont care about his manufactured backstory with Vex (who I love) just being thrown in there out of nowhere (plot twist my ample ass). At least the Evony is his mother was layered in from the beginning of the season. This was another "oh wait, what if Vex was his secret Fae foster parent?!" random move whose screen time couldve been better served in any number of ways.

I'll stop bitching about Doctor Lauren when her ever-changing, ever-more absurd story stops being the most ridiculous aspect of this once fun & engaging show.
514. Bore-mudaTriangle
I just realized that we get to see Tamsin's wings next week! I mean, EA said we'd see them again this season, and we have yet to.. so. Yay!

And of course people will die next week, but who? They said Trick has a lot to amend for and it'll come to play in the finale.. so maybe he dies.

Btw, was I the only one who like.. ok. Who kisses their mom like that?
Kiersten Hallie Krum
515. Kiersten
@Bore-muda Triangle - here in my hotel room, it went more along the lines of "Ewwwwwwww"
516. Bore-mudaTriangle
@Kiersten Lol! I know, I grimaced. They even shared a kiss in the episode where he grows her eye back. He really wants his mommy I guess. :l

Sorry, anti-Lauren post coming again. Is it bad, at this point, to feel that all ships are worthless to ship for excluding Doccubus? I feel the show is just flowing everything into a Doccubus endgame, while dragging all other ships down. Usually each ship has an episode or moment where it seems they have a fighing chance, yet, it may just be to make us think it is "fair game" when all along it's only just been Lauren. God, Wonder Lauren and her storyline will be the death of me.

I'm glad they made it clear that Bo was not binding to Rainer for love, though.
517. jdknight
Kenzi outside history. Walks out. No way. Lost Girl will not exist without Kenzi. This must still be the dawning
518. TheUberFan
I'll have to rewatch but at this point, I need to rethink pretty much anything I was thinking about for the finale.

And I'm feeling pretty bitter too.
519. TheGardner
So Lauren took down The Morrigan by making her go down, ha! Please excuse me while I die laughing. Oh Lost Girl, how do I love thee, let me count the ways...
Carmen Pinzon
520. bungluna
So now we have Dr. MengeLauren changing faes into human. This is heroic how?
Carmen Pinzon
521. bungluna
For anyone who wants to read what EA has to say about this debacle.
522. drusilla_doll
I'm sure Bo, Dyson, Trick and other Fae will just love how Lauren can force any of them to be human on a whim. That's trust building for ya.
523. TheUberFan
Let's set aside how non-sensical it is to change a fae into a human with a serum, although it is ridiculous.

Okay, let's not set it aside. I can sort of go with the "stem cells to make a hybrid human fae"...even though that would have taken longer than an hour to complete. But Lauren got a small saliva sample and from that was able to create a serum that alters DNA? Remember, "Fae" is their genus, just like "Homo" is our genus.

Essentially, Lauren did the equivalent of turning a tiger into a giraffe with a serum. Derived from a tiny saliva sample.

Delivered via oral sex, which apparently is supposed to be amusing. Look, I'm not saying Evony doesn't deserve some payback for stuff she's done...she's not a nice person, but how is this not really crossing the line? Isn't this worse than spybanging? She used sex to assault Evony. She attacked her, knowing she could die from the attack.

How is she different from Taft again? You know, the one she called a madman?

Now let's talk about Tamsin, who is amazingly a bystander in her major story arc. And actually, I guess that's all I can say about that since she really wasn't there that much and didn't really do anything but sit and drink. Thanks for that, Lost Girl.

The only thing I liked was Kenzi. Ksenia Solo is selling the arc brilliantly, as someone who constantly is set aside for fae business and she's tired of it. She's tired of being disregarded and lied to and manipulated. Bo let her down, so did Dyson, so did Vex. The obvious question is, why didn't she ask Tamsin who she developed a close friendship with and cares for...but I guess Tamsin really doesn't matter to the show any more and has no real value to the writers. So she makes statements and connections...and the next thing you know, meh. Nothing happens. I'm really bothered by the utter sidelining of her character this year when it was clear, to me at least, that she was being built up for something this year, especially in regard to the Wanderer. And then Kenzi. And then Trick. But worries I guess since all that matters is Lauren does everything for Bo, even psycho scary stuff like take away people's identities without really caring what happens to them.
524. lonewolf
I got up just after midnight (thank you plow truck)so I decided to watch the show. I was still half asleep so I didn't really process much but did I hear it right towards the end that Bo and Rainer got married!? Did she say it was just to defeat her daddy. And did I hear him say that he loved her? He loves her but she's just getting together with him to defeat her father. Maybe it's just me but doesn't that come off as a you love me but I don't love you deal, somewhat similar to what she had done to Dyson.

And the only other thing that I caught was DL telling Bo that everything she did was for Bo. Is it just me or does it seem like the doccubus fans have hi-jacked the show. She should be taken out of the main scheme of things for awhile. So I'm going to watch the show a couple more times to fully absorb it. But if it keeps going down the road it's currently on it may not be picked up again by SyFy. Next week will decide whether or not I will watch season 5. And to think I planned my vacation around these last 4 episodes because of the supposed build up. I could have gone and probably watched them after I got back and not missed much.

How many people would like me to make a voodooo doll of EA and whoever else that has worked towards making this show a mess and throw it out of a plane at 10,500 ft. and let the feral goats have it for lunch. I may just do it anyways. I don't think the jump team will have any qualms about that. But I'll watch it a again while I am fully awake and see what I may have missed.

After this season comes to a close I imagine this blog will not be on here anymore til next season.
525. MynameisactuallyLauren
Wow! Anyone need a box of tissues for the blatant valkubus/dybo pity parties going on? Some of you are actually starting to sound like disgruntled Doccubus fans… and we’ve all seen what a slippery slope that can be.

Personally, I don't pledge allegiance to any ships but I actually don't mind the God/Lauren storyline so far. It's been a hell of a lot more interesting when compared to her Arc for the prior three seasons.

However, I have to admit that I take issue with the following points from this episode:

1. How exactly did we get from fae-power-stripping, rug- munching glory... to dungeon hysterics with Faenorman Bates? And why the tears? I thought Lauren had finally grown a pair this season… what - with all the pizza, beer, casual sex and fake lips.

2. Did Faenorman Bates assist his (now human and presumably about as useful as tits on a bull) mother in capturing God and placing her in the Dungeon? And then what? Mummy dearest just turned to Massimo and said “Yeah, on second thought champ, you’re bat-sh#t crazy so you can stay down here too”?

3. Bo didn’t fight too hard against Kenzi wanting to be unclaimed now did she? I mean really…

Kenzi: “Unclaim me”
Bo: “No”
Kenzi “UN. CLAIM. ME.”
Bo: “Oh alright!”

Don’t worry Doccubus fans… maybe there is hope after all:

God: “Choose me over Dyson, Tamsin, et al.”
Bo: “No”
God: “CHOOSE. ME.”
Bo “Oh alright!”

4. Hale’s lack of family at the funeral: Ugh… so your only son is dead but I tote’s understand that holiday to Switzerland was way more important.

5. Tamsin… oh sorry! Were you even in this episode?

6. Dyson: So a blatant lunatic who killed your (you wish) lover’s best friend’s fiancé/your alleged best friend whisper-rants a half-assed prophecy/threat in your ear and all of a sudden you want to keep him?

This episode displayed more twisting and turning than a Circ De Sole act… but the end result has left me feeling more than a little nauseous.

Hopefully the wash of random story line’s tie together in the finale… but knowing EA’s apparent love of mind f#ckery… I won’t hold my breath.
526. Bore-mudaTriangle
@MynameisactuallyLauren The Lauren thing isn't really even about people and their ships. It's simply about Lauren.

Lauren doing that wasn't very heroic, though. As people above said, it was assault. Taft was a madman trying to turn humans into Fae, so what is the difference between Lauren turning Fae into humans? The Morrigan was a bitch and Lauren heard her say Bo should die, but Lauren did make a costly move. Trick and Evony were setting aside their differences to do something about Rainer, and without her power and current role as a human, she will most likely be kicked out of her position and won't be much help to the gang if some shit goes down. Plus as someone said, if more fae hear about Lauren and her magical serum that turned the Morrigan human, you can be sure that they'll be coming after her.
527. Jojen Backslash
@bungluna She'll believe anythig any passing girl-knight stranger tells her. She'll go off and do any asinine thing to save the latest stranger instead of being with her supposed BFF whose suffered a major bereavement. She's just an IDIOT!
Dead on. I like (liked?) LG because of the core relationships - the way this ad hoc family of folks supported each other. Even though the Hale/Kenzi love affair was somewhat schematic its roots extended back several years.

For Bo to so casually dismiss Kenzi is at odds with all the world building that came before - and no 7th day explanation like Bo was cursed/drugged/brain-damaged is going to explain away that major character shift. It's crap writing.

Speaking of flailing writers, there were enough threads opened without spewing more. I like Lauren (not so harsh on her as others appear to be) and thought she was slowly transmuting herself into the kind of Fae the Morrigan was (and maybe a mix more). That would make sense (so to speak) given what happened last season. Lauren's speech to the Morrigan just prior to the "big reveal" - about being tired of being on the outside of Faedom - led me to believe she was going to demonstrate her new found (and presumably painful) transition from human to Fae.

Instead we get "insta-human" undercarriage cream. Really?

I could go on and on about the many existing threads that could've lent themselves to cool - and somewhat consistent - resolutions but....

Right now, the writers seem to be throwing anything they can at the wall to see what sticks - which is bad - and forgetting the core strength of the show, the relationships between the characters, in forging ahead - which is worse.
528. JayCruz61
Wow! At this point I don't know what to think but what was so disturbing to me was Kenzi's devastation. Bo not putting up a fight for Kenzi refusing to unclaim her didn't surprise me at all. This is who she has become, supremely, self-centered and selfish. What does desturb me is Kenzi returning to the streets again. Damn! This is the best part that is being writen thus far. At this point Kensi feels betrayed by everyone and is acting the part.

Laura's bad ass role, was a good write but seeing her go from brazen to a cowardice character was perplexing to say the least. I wanted to see her and Evony and damn it I loved it, even though it was on false pretenses. Did she really think Bo would recognize that all she has done was for her, plz Bo is wrapped up into Bo.

Massimo being Evony's son and having the Una Men's seed, surprise surprise, surprise and unexpected...smh

Can someone answer me a question? What was the purpose of writing Tammy and Dyson in this episode?.. again smh

My favorite parts were that written for Lauren and Kenzi. This Rainer character is still a mystery and for the life of me I can't figure out why he was written in the script/storyline... Maybe someone on here can explain it to me because I don't get it.
529. lonewolf
@bungluna, I just read the interview with EA. This is the first time, and I must say she is vague about things, headgames galore.

@MynameisactuallyLauren, Hales family was in the vault with Hale.

It seems as tho the origin seed hasn't digested to well for massimo. I guess we'll see next week. Does he think the seed will give him the ultimate power over the fae.

And of course there is the bonding between Bo and Rainer. She doesn't love him. It's just to help defeat the wanderer(?) But then again as soon as he touches her she gets this giddy smile on her face. Is he the one she'll have to go to Irkalla to save. I must be the only one in denial that Rainer is actually a good guy. The show does need someone to replace Hale. It was great to see Kenzi demand that Bo unclaim her. I have to take another look at the crown that was on the train to see if it is similar to the one that the scroll that Dyson, Tamsin and Bo were looking at.

Bo is the one, the one what, she will dissolve the line between the light and dark? I would preferably see the fae stay that way, light and dark. I could be wrong but to me it gives balance to the show.
@bungluna, I have been comparing Lost Girl to Xena a number of times. I got a laugh when I read it in the interview. They should change the theme song to I used to live the life that I choose.

So lets see what happens next week. That's my ramble for the time being. And it truly has been an experience being on a blog that is dominated by all of you ladies. Truly, it gives me a perspective that I would not get from a bunch of construction workers who have absolutley no idea what goes on in the mind of a woman. They all do a good job of swinging a hammer and swearing, but not much more than that. Maybe what I just said will get some other guy(s) to come out of the lurking shadows and make themselves known.
531. newgirl
What a mess!!! I hope they're gonna do something about Kenz next chap... they just left her there... in the back... utterly neglected and yes, Bo was like... sure why not, unclaimed you are o_O!!! what was that!!??? when seconds before she was like " you can try to push me away Kenzi but it's not gonna work", yeah sure didn't work!!! and then we all go running behind Bo oh.. poor Bo... now she is queen bee... whatever, very unfair, and marrying this Rainer... yuck!! i don't care if it is lauren ar dyson or even tamsim if that matter... but RAINER!!?? a guy with what 2 months of memory and all because it is your so call destiny, so you want to meet your father on your terms... but hey lets get married in the "most sacred" (so far) fae way so we bring him up here those are my terms, and no don't pay attention to books, so overrated they were written with prophecies just for the fae kids to eat their food and go to bed early... and not just 1 but even a piece of leather is telling you to be cautious... but no it doesn't matter... go to hel everyone not hell hell, but hel, great, just great, pretty mad at kenz all alone out there... i d0n't know the next ep could only amaze me if Kenzi is the infamous queen and bo her warrior... but wait i just imagine that now so... nop it won't amaze me, these is what i expect for next week: prepare to have none conclusion on any theme and be left with all the knots untie and more questions than before and not in a good way... all these for the sake of season 5... hate when they wanna close everything in the end... because in the end they don't.
532. JayCruz61
Okay, I have another question. if all that Evony said was true and I am assuming it was then can someone please explain to me how fae are created and/or reproduced. According to her and Lauren they don't sweat, iche, have a heartbeat and periods at least the so how do they come into existance. Man someone has been snoozing on the paper with the pen in hand...smh The more I think about this season the more confused I am.. Until my next question....
533. voldo2006
Going to go out on a limb here but i dont think Kenzi's is going to be around too much longer. Which i hope doesnt happen!!!
534. drusilla_doll
So what does anyone make of what Massimo whispered to Dyson?

"All of your friends will die and you will just watch."

Why would that make Dyson NOT want to kill him? Also, that doesn't sound like Dyson at all.

Then again, I don't hold out any hope of Dyson getting anything interesting to do in the finale. Being sidelined and watching the action sounds like what the writers have in store for him now that Rainer's Bo's Warrior and Lauren is in distress.

I'm really hoping that Kenzi will be the surprise hero of the story now. Because damn it, she needs an uplifting moment or two.
535. newgirl
@drusilla_doll hope that too, Kenz need it if not deserve it.
@voldo2006, hope not, because i think it would be a HUGE mistake to take kenzi out of the picture... many fans would leave the series almost for sure, Bo was right in one tiny moment on this chapter and it is when she said "Kenzi, you are a part of all of us" and that goes for fans too.
Susan White
536. whiskeywhite
To be fair to Bo, she didn't just say, "Oh, OK" when Kenzi demanded to be unclaimed. Let's look in detail at the scene and the dialogue. First, when Bo comes looking for her, Kenzi asks coldly if Bo has been having fun with her new Lady Knight. Bo responds, "You can try to push me away, but it's not going to work. I love you." Then Kenzi reads Bo a poem from a book, the point being to demonstrate that Kenzi doesn't belong with Bo in the Fae world.

Then Kenzi demands, "Unclaim me." Initially Bo refuses firmly, "That is your grief talking. That is not what you want." Kenzi retorts equally firmly: "No! I know that I don't want to be here any more." At this point they're interruped by the Knight, whom Bo tells sharply, "Not now!" Despite the Knight insisting that it's about Rainer, Bo continues with Kenzi. Then Kenzi lays it on her heavy: "Can you just do this one thing, this one thing that I'm asking?" Bo refuses again. "No, I'm not letting you go. I can't." To which Kenzi snaps back, "It's not about you!" See throws something off the table (the book?) for noisy emphasis and demands, "Un-claim me!" Bo finally relents, "Fine, I unclaim you." Kenzi looks like she's going to cry (why? Because for once, Bo actually did what she asked? Or to be more charitable, recognizing what she is losing?) and storms away.

The Knight asks again that Bo accompany her. Instead, Bo sends only a note to Rainer. As Kenzi rushes from HH, Bo calls out to her, "Kenzi, we are not done" to which Kenzi responds angrily, "Yah, we're done" and disappears.

So a careful examination of the scene and dialogue does not at all support Bo being casual or uncaring about Kenzi's demand.

It's important to remember that Kenzi had already told Bo off a couple of times previously for not paying attention to her: over Bo leaving and abandoning Kenzi scared and alone as a labelled terrorist among the Fae, and for not sucking her chi enough to save Hale. Kenzi has made it abundantly clear that she thinks Bo is self absorbed (reiterated here: "It's not about you") and doesn't care enough about her to pay attention to her wishes. So with this third occurrence, Bo finally breaks down and does what Kenzi asks, though it's breaking her heart.

The poem Kenzi was reading from the book is interesting. It lists the major players: "One with eyes both brown and blue (Bo), one who shifts (Dyson), a Valkyrie too (Tamsin). One with blood that rules the world (Trick), one who sings, his life unfurled (Hale). A warrior to be her guide (?), a healer always by her side (Lauren). ... Everyone's in here except the weak human girl." Kenzi presumably assumes that the warrior is Rainer, but could the warrior not be Kenzi herself? She has always fought beside Bo, sword at the ready.

I do hope Kenzi plays a major role in the finale and think that TPTB would be fools to kill her off. There would be a mass exodus of viewers.
537. drusilla_doll
Episode 12 thread here:
538. lonewolf
@voldo2006, they would be shooting themselves in the foot to get rid of Kenzi. She is one of the main characters of the show. I think if anything she may have decided to go after massimo alone. Depending on how the origin seed affects him, she may not have to. As for the Twig Of Zamora, the clan Zamora must have a way to track or find it.

@JayCruz61, the fae may have children the same way humans do. It's just that their menstrual cycle may be different from humans (i.e. no periods) I guess. Unless you have been changed to be a human. As what to happened to Evony. Then they'll have a period. Otherwise it shouldn't be much different. But then I'm a guy trying to answer that question.

I have watched the show twice now and one item piques my curiosity. And that is that crown. The tattoo on the knights arm (Rosette) and the one on the scroll are differnt from the one that was on the train. Is there any significance between the two being different, I thought not but now, who knows. Did they refer to vahalla as being hal, hel? Valkyries are from nordic myth. But that does not mean anything on this show.

I'm curious, will Aife make an appearance soon. She wants to find her daughter, and she knows who her father is. And maybe she would help dispose of him. After reading that interview with EA this morning I realize why everyone says she is vague and misleading. So who knows what will happen next week. As for Rainer, he had to have had some kind of power on the train, when they were on the train he was playing the final count down. After all they had some glowing sex while Bo was on the train. But I think, what I said before about it only being a means to get him off the train. And I still think this Rainer guy isn't who he appears to be.

One thing I did like about last nights show, and that is Kenzi telling Bo to unclaim her. I didn't like some knight crashing thu the woods to find Bo during Hales funeral. You can see the disgust on Kenzi's face. So maybe she's going to go vigilante on some druid's ass. That I wouldn't mind seeing. And you know what else, I'm beginning to think that this blog is as interesting as the show itself, if not more so. Crazy as that sounds. I didn't watch any previews on youtube or anything else. I can't get showcase previews because I'm here in the states. So it's just a wait and see, wait and see, for me. But that crown on the train, that has to mean something.
539. newgirl
@whiskeywhite, fine Bo didn't just went "Oh, OK", but c'mon the knight just said It's Rainer and she was shifting focuses, so no... for me she didn't try hard enough, I don't condemn Bo for leaving Kenzi and all that, because hey... Bo was kidnapped, she didn't have the choice to leave, she was taken, but besides that she have kenz in the corner, light out and everything, i was kind of worry at the beginning of this season with these other girl bo found when she got off the train, and something she told her in the end, i don't remember what was now, but it got me thinking "are they going to replace Kenzi with her???!!!" hope that's not the plan, i mean sure KC was in other series he needed to be let go... as happen with Nate who went strait to Warehouse after finishing with LG.
Oh and one thing that got me on the poem... (that's why i said maybe Kenz turn out to be the queen :crazylol:) the poem is a list of companions and if Bo IS a companion... who is the main character on the poem?? I mean the poem goes like "one with eyes.... a valkyrie too, one shifts, one blood that rules..., one who sings... A warrior to be her guide.... (a guide to whom to the first number in the list??), a healer always by her side (whose side??)" i hope there something big in store for kenzi
540. JayCruz61
@lonewolf thanks for trying to answer my questions but I guess I have to go back and watch the beginning to get more answers about how the fae came to exist. I just read that article you keep refering to and it is a doozy. Just like your needle is stuck on trying to figure out that crown and its markings, my needle has stopped on Kenzi. When reading that article, EA said something that I thought they and everyone else forgot about and that is that little exchange between the Morrigan and Kenzi, pertaining to Kenzi's ex Nate. How Kenzi owes the Morrigan a favor and there are no limits on it. What's interesting is that now the Morrigan is human and Kenzi is on her own again, feeling betrayed by everyone that is in her biological family and fae/human family because she wants Massimo's dead and isn't getting any cooperation from anyone, perhaps the Morrigan can cash in on that favor and save her son. My o my, that would make a hell of a twist for Kenzi. What would she do with all of that anger? You are right about this blog, "lonewolf"... I'm going to watch that episode again and see what else I can latch onto. I did notice this about Bo and Lauren, their story isn't as fatal or final by far as the writers made Bo and Dysons. Bo and Lauren's body language gave that away.

Oh here's the article just in case someone else wants to read it..

This is only my opinion but EA is a bit arrogant. (food for thought)
Carmen Pinzon
542. bungluna
@lonewolf - Me, me! I'll cheer you on as the doll goes splat! I hope the goats get to ruminate (heh!) on AE.

AE is utterly incompetent. She has taken a show that was fresh and different and turned it into a Cinemax wannabe with third rate plotting and out-of-nowhere twists. Even the characters that I once loved are becoming tedious and frankly uninteresting. I'm a completist, so I'll watch until the end, but that's it, folks.
544. Aurora Kid
Lost Girl has lost its luster. It used to be fresh and energetic but the fouth season has had a change of writers (original creator has left the show) and it shows. Not as much fun, not as interesting, the new Faes are dull and lack the magical qualities of the earlier Faes we were introduced to. More soap opera now than supernatural series. Need some good writers, less dialogue and more action. Bring back the old Lost Girl or you are witnessing the beginning of the end of a good show that had the potential to have a long run.
545. KL
Sorry to sound dumb, but did I miss something? When did Hale die? What episode was it? I don't remember seeing it?
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